Is There Quality In Today’s RV’s?
It seems that we see more and more reported quality control issues from RV owners today. Is the quality of today’s motor homes and trailers really that bad when compared to earlier years? To understand that, we need to look more closely at what the common problems are and determine why they are happening.
By far the most common issue is failure or improper operation of a supplier component like refrigerators, electronic entry key pads, air conditioners, sidewall panels, engine sensors, engine fan assemblies, leveling systems, automatic steps and more. But why do these items fail? It seemed like this was never near the issue ten or fifteen years ago that it is today. Let’s look at what may have contributed to these failures.
- Poor quality control at the component factory.
- Improper installation at the RV manufacturer level.
- Improper operation or maintenance at the owner level.
- Improper component application at the RV design level.
- Poor material or workmanship.
Then there are the manufacturer’s failures and misfits. Some of these problems include incorrect fitting of structural coach body mounting, poorly mounted or supported windshields, misaligned slide mechanisms, cosmetic faults and more.
There are chassis/engine issues also, seen all too often. Some of these deal with failed engine sensors, engine internal failures, fan drives, shock absorbers, pneumatic valves, axle bearings, seals and more.
So looking at the entire cross section of typical flaws and failures, it would be fair to say that the RV manufacturer is not the sole problem. In fact, perhaps far more times the issues land clearly with others, yet the RV manufacturer gets the blame.
In talking to many owners of relatively new rigs, it is interesting to learn that many are unhappy mainly due to the need for repeated repairs involving the same item. That is, the issue is not properly repaired, or soon breaks again. Also, perhaps of no surprise, most of these warranty repairs were carried out by a dealer, not the manufacturer’s service department. It appears the satisfaction level is considerably higher with those owners that choose to have the O.E.M. (Original Equipment Manufacturer) repair their rig. Likewise, the need to repeat a repair appears to be a very low to nil in frequency.
The somewhat less satisfying service record reported in regards to dealers may be due to several factors. First, the modern RV’s are now coming equipped with far more sophisticated gadgets than earlier years, like computer driven devices and multiplex wiring systems. In addition, these systems are changed or enhanced each year. Things as simple as operating the air conditioning are software controlled on some makes and models. This raises the next issue, getting experienced trained dealer technicians. This is a challenge given the dealer’s profit margins, not only the salary, but the cost of ongoing training, too. Then there is the dealer’s parts inventory. In most cases, the dealer may have to order the parts required from the factory. Many times this requires a minimum order size, creating more dealer costs.
Now, please don’t read this to say that all the dealers have inferior service, because that is not correct. There are excellent service facilities at a number of dealer locations, and in particular some excellent individual service technicians. Unfortunately, I believe these and they, are not the majority.
Is it possible that this apparent quality control level has not really declined, but rather the modern communication formats and media have made these items more well known? Blogs, forums and websites are capable of reaching all corners of the world in a fraction of a second. While this is certainly possible to a degree, we can not dismiss the increasing technical challenges of this ever increasing computer driven world. Simple auto tune up mechanics were made obsolete 20 some years ago unless they upgraded to the new computer age. This now extends far past what we would think, would ever be controlled or driven by logic or computers. Likewise, this technology also applies to the manufacturing, setting up, and testing of these vehicles.
So, what has your experience been? Is your dealer one of the elite servicing providers? Let’s hear from you.
With Some Quality Thoughts - Lug_Nut - Peter Mercer
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I have said for years that the biggst drawback to the RV lifestyle is the RVs themselves. In 1998 we bought a new Pace Arrow Visin that was a total lemon, and neither Fleetwood or the dealer we bought it from could resolve its many problems, I haven’t seen any improveemnt in what’s come down the line since then from many manufacturers.
All of the points you listed:
Poor quality control at the component factory.
Improper installation at the RV manufacturer level.
Improper component application at the RV design level.
Poor material or workmanship
are a part of the problem, as well as the total apathy so many manufacturers and dealers have for the customer once they have made the sale.
Nick, Great summary of the overall issues. The thing is, it is not just one or two makes, they all have had and will have these faults from time to time. We just need to enjoy them in between some how. All in all, I’ve had my times too, but I have learned to mamage and can say I’m within a reasonable level of being satisfied.
You say that the manufacturer is not the sole problem – but really, they are. They are the ones that set their specs for their suppliers and they also select their suppliers, often based on cost, rather than quality. On dealer repair vs the O.E.M., the manufacturer sets the rates and the allowable hours for warranty work, so if the dealer can’t show a profit on the work, that also often falls back on the manufacturer. Also, if manufacturers set minimum orders for parts, that would seem to throw another problem at the dealer.
I purchased a 2008 Class C and I’m very unimpressed with the quality of manufacture or the resolution of some simple problems. My windows keep sliding open while driving. Not a problem so lng as it’s not raining. I had TV problems. The manufacturer referred me to their vendor for a solution. The problem got fixed after a long delay – but I remember thinking at the time that they should be following through with their supplier. I wasn’t their customer – I was the manufacturers customer.
Your article concerning the poor quality control of RV’s coming off the line in today’s market is quite interesting. We also take issue with some dealers and the poor service and workmanship they provide.
We have RV’d for nearly 50 years, starting out with a Scotty and moving up in size through the years. We have had pull trailers, 5th wheels and motorhomes, but prefer the 5th wheel best. We just purchased a new Milabu, less that a year old, with which we have had some issues. First off, there were small issues which we returned to the dealer for correction, The dealer gave very poor service as far as we were concerned. Then we found there was no access panel into the manuel in & out crank for the slide out. Believe me, there is a good possibility of needing to manuelly crank the slide in or out at some point. We have had to do it on another trailer with slide. You can’t very well go down the road with your slide not cranked in.
Also, there was a water leak underneath the kitchen sink, just plain a bad connection betweel the flexible hose , solid hose and an improper fitting. It leaked to the point of getting the carpet wet in the living area.
We opted to have our local Camping World correct both of these problems, after explaining to the manufacturer that we did not want to return the unit to the dealer because of their poor service attitude and poor workmanship provided by their employees. Seemed there was new service employees every time we were at the dealership. Camping World completed the repairs on both problems and we sent the invoice to the Manufacturer for reimbursement.
We still have one issue with the dealership concerning a warranty insurance policy and after many calls with there not returning the calls at all, we are seeking out what other recourse we have.
Thanks
Robert Tiefel
Several years ago, I had a new to me motorhome with an extended warranty. Close to the end of the warranty period I had several items, fuel pump, entry step and one of the leveling jacks; that needed repair. I took the motorhome to the dealer I bought it from and they announced yes they would fix me up. Ha McClains RV in Oklahoma City. Several times they called me to come get the MH as they had it repaired. Three times when I got there it was not ready. Twice they didn’t even have the parts ordered. Once it might have been ready, but as soon as I entered I saw greasy shoe prints all over the carpet.
This when on for at about 90 days. And they never did get the leveling jack to work correctly. All three items were purely mechanical, no electronics involved. Any repair shop should have been able to do the repairs. McClains could not . The only item that actually worked like it should was the fuel pump, which they farmed out.
Larry
You hit the nail on the head 4 out of 5 Quality control is nil Too bad they that build these units don’t live in them for a few months Then i wonder what the Quality would be!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have to state that I believe the RV manufacturer is not the sole offender but perhaps the primary. In 2000 I bought a Wilderness LX fifth wheel based primarily of a positive experience with a 29 foot Wilderness trailer. The LX was supposed to be an upgrade in quality, fit, finish, etc. WOW what a disapointment!! All three slides had problems, Fit and finish were terrible and the bedroom slide when extended split the fiberglass siding of the trailer. Fleetwood ultimately had to tow the 5er back to Indiana and replace the entire fiberglass skin on the street side. Two of the three slide problems were due to bad crimps on connecters. I found them when looking and saw a bare wire sticking out. I found the mating connector and realized that the wire had just slipped out of the crimp. In checking around I fount two more crimps that were so loose I could pull the wire out with my hand.
I bought a 2009 Open Range and have so far had no problems what so ever. Now Open Range is a new company and I am sure they are “trying harder” but I expect there is a mind set there that will cause them to produce great RV’s for a long time.
We had a 1999 Winnebago Adventurer and a 2002 Itasca Horizon. Biggest problem with both were hydraulic leaks and/or failures. With both we had wind noise and slight windshield leaks. With the Horizon we had periodic problems with the electrical connections in the dashboard. We do feel that the Winnebago products have better quality than some. I do some RV transport driving and have had difficulties that relate mainly to design.
We currently have a 5th wheel and have had few problems.
Great summary and analysis! There is another consideration:
We are in a severely truncating rv building/selling period. What preceded was a 10 year run-up of constantly increasing production of rvs and a large expansion of different model designs by all builders as they tried to capture more market share and cover all elements of the market. Expanded production lines, accelerated build schedules and a large growth in production workers resulted. Delivery time and market share became primary, quality control secondary. As I have seen in other industries, the result often is less experienced personnel on the lines. Good people, but without the experienced to build quality in. Kind of an on-the-job training. Perhaps with a lessening of the pace, higher quality in both parts production and rv construction will result.
We purchased a new 2007 Country Coach from Buddy Gregg last June.I just read an article on Country Coach closing there doors in March if they can’t get financing. We have had a lot of small problems. We have had it in the shop probably 8 times if not more. Buddy Gregg of Texas has taken good care of us. Now what will happen to the rest of my 1 year factory warranty if the shut there doors? All my problems have been poor quality control from the factory.
Jerry
When the President of a company, which supplies Newmar and several Prevost lines, rear view/controlled cameras told me that Newmar gets 5% of his business, but makes up 98% of his problems, I asked why. He said they install his sytem wrong, and he was going to stop selling to Newmar if they continued to fail following his explicit instructions/directions.
Makes you wonder what else a company does and does not do?
pdelorey, I would have to disagree. The manufacturers are not the total problem here. They use suppliers, some like G.E. with their Advantium range. This is a top quality household appliance, as is Fisher Paykal dishwashers. Can you blame the RV manufacturer if they fail? My take is no. Well, I’ve got one that’s waiting for a repair this week, and you can’t buy alot better than what they chose. So, please, don’t throw the RV manufacturers under the bus totally. I believe they have done reasonably well under today’s circumstances and in today’s media light. Thank you for bring up your point and for your input.
Robert Tiefel, Your input is appreciated with the experience you bring. Fifty years of RVing is very rare. I agree with much of your feelings and think you are quite correct. Of course with the new age came new issues, including a new way to broadcast problems. It is questionable just how much the new form of instant media broadcast created, or brought to light, these issues. Thank you very much for your great input and participation on this topic
Larry, Extended warranties are almost an entire separate topic, and I know where you are coming from. The issue of repair facility re-do’s are really unaceptable. Thanks for sharing your service experiences with all of us. and for your input.
I’m on my 4th motorhome in 10 years. This 4th one should have been my FIRST, cause the other three (from different manufacturers) were for the most part either lemons or just plain JUNK. The really GOOD news is that one of the manufacturers and representing dealers have all gone belly up. A second one is just about to even though they have gotten financing–just not enough!
My feelings about these “good ole boys” that are having to close up shop, is–it’s about time! I’m sorry for the outcome for the poor souls that own these products–especially if they still have any kind of manufacturers warranty. But certainly all OUR complaints over the years have fallen on deaf ears. So if these guys refuse to listen to their customers and do things RIGHT, then it serves these top execs and all their whoopee design engineers (who have never spent a night in one of their pieces of junk) right. I say let them all go belly up. After all the proof is in the construction and finally I have a motorhome that I’m PROUD to own and will show it off every chance I get. And do! In fact people STOP and admire it every time they see my coach. It has never had a coat of wax on it and is now six years old and looks just as nice as it did when it came off the showroom floor! Everything inside works great too! I love my 40 foot single slide Class A Foretravel.
We had a Montana (by Keystone) and had some problems, but it seems when we upgraded to a Carriage Carri-Lite is when our major problems began. This is 5th wheel with five slides. Two of the slides are not working properly and last week the plastic bottom hinge to the fridge door just broke off. The whole door fell in the floor. We took it in for warranty work in October (mainly for the slide problems). Whatever they ordered still isn’t in. We bought at Explore USA in Mesquite and that’s where we are going for the warranty work.
We’ve had several problems with the Norcold 1095R fridge with the door problem just being the last of many. We have a local man we pay to do the repairs we can’t do. Haven’t even tried to get reimbursement. Just a couple hundred here and a couple hundred there. But the slides worry us.
Good post. Seems to me that most RV manufacturers are assemblers, not system designers beyond layout, features and cosmetics.
RV’s are comprised of systems that are specified as to form and fit but rarely as to how they may interact with other systems or survive the shock and vibration of a rig. We also have add in the quality problems that occur in production.
With so many systems to learn about it’s small wonder that repair shops don’t always get repairs right but instead go into a mode of replacing components until something works. There’s plenty of blame to go around at almost every aspect of building, repairing and using RV’s. Somehow it doesn’t stop us from enjoying the darn things—most of the time.
Truman, Thank you, 4 out of 5 stacks up to 80%. But seriously, your point is well taken. Thanks for your input.
Cliff, I believe you are correct. The RV manufacturers are not the sole issue. At times, they certainly stand out to be, but not for much that we see today. Thanks for sharing your experience with us and for your initiative in posting.
Gary H, Yes certainly Winnebago has a great following and, in some ways, speaks perceiver quality. But, all manufacturers do share in these issues.Thank you very much for your well stated input.
Peter Hickey, Great points! You may very well have a contributing element of this issue. Quality drops when demand rises. Thanks for your thoughts, they very well may be largely responsible.
WOW! All this is very discouraging. I have a 1995 Thor Residency that I bought second hand. I have put 2 engines in it and on the second one it was recommended I change the radiator to a three core type instead of 2 because the original radiator was too small for the engine. I have replaced the refrigerator, water pump, radiator, gas pump, had the gas line insulated as it would vapor lock on a hot day, and have learned hoe to fix the steps and dash air conditioner myself. In replacing the curtains and valences on the windows I had my first clue about how poorly it is put together. Is it common to use staples to attach the flooring, paneling, etc. It shouldn’t take too much thinking to realize some of those components might shake loose going down the road. This includes the TV cabinet which almost let go of the TV when I was going down the road! And here I wqas anticipating getting a brand new motorhome because I enjoy traveling and the people I meet. Is there any group that ranks RVs the way Consumer’s Union does cars?
Jerry Pippin. Country Coach is a quality name in motor coaches. Don’t panic yet, they may well be buyers in the wings. If not, there are other ways, which in future we will be looking at. Thanks for your honest input. Many owners are afraid to mention that they have issues. Let’s face it, we all have from time to time.
Bob, Today I doubt they are about to cut any manufacturer off for anything except inability to pay. I have not heard of problem from Newmar owners concerning their remote controlled cameras. However, we will see if issues develop. Thanks much for your valued input.
John Christman, As usual you have great input. The Foretravel is a well designed coach. A single slide certainly reduces a boatload of potential problems. Thanks, much John.
Sue,
You asked about an organization like Consumers Union. Yes check out http://www.rv.org great outfit has been around for years.
I think the more gadgets and gizmo’s we demand for our RVs, the more problems we are going to have. Software for AC? Residential appliances, computer controlled window shades all these things are convenient when they work, but when the wheels fall off everyone complains. I cannot in good conscience recommend anyone buying a new RV. Aside from the fact manufacturers are dropping like flies, the product coming off the assembly lines are not built as well as units 10 to 15 years ago.
Robert Tiefel has the right answer to RV problems. If you take it back to the dealer and then go to another state and the problem pops up again your just out of luck on what you have to now spend at the new dealer. However, take it to Camping World, go to another state and if a problem pop us again you will have some recourse. I have never had a bad experience at Camping World. Even had one Tech discover a problem that I didn’t even bring it in for.
Hi, I have owned and worked on 3 motor homes,I am a retired appliance service tech.After full timing for 2 years I’ve come to these conclusions.1,The motorhome you purchase is only 85% finished,you get to complete it. 2,If you aren’t handy,you are at the mercy of these cro— I mean technitions,find a class and hone your R.Vskills3,Research the dealer.I just purchased a motorhme in Crystal River fl and the dealer couldn’t even tell me what size engine was in it.I dug through the glove box and found the original owners name,He told me all about the coach including the bad brakes it had.
I did buy the coach,but at a big price reduction.They sure safety em.
Good Luck with your purchase
Bill
Hello Folks, we live in a 35 ft excel fith wheel and love it. The best thing we did was buy a 1993 freightliner cab over semi to pull it with. we have however had issues with our rv fridge! but all in all it is all good!
A good article! Having worked in the Defense Industry for 36 years as an engineer and in management–quality issues are the responsibility of the outfit that puts it all together. The components must meet the quality standards set by the RV manufacturer–low quality standards will result in low cost and low quality units at the component level and final assembly. If the industry was certified to a national or international quality standard like ISO 9000, then I believe you would see a difference in the quality (improved) and probably in the upfront cost (higher). We pay for what we get.
My Montana 5th wheel is 3 years old and I have had few problems. Yes, Dometic fixed the refig. I am pleased with the quality of the Montana product as related to the cost.
Both the manufacturers and dealers share the problems of quality AND service. We just bought a 09 Titanium, and the dealer provided a one hour PDI. On our first night out, fuses blew, water leaked, and the tires had bubbles. And we paid cash! It was delivered without a fire extinguisher and no unloaded weight certificate. We complained to the sales person, and we were bascially told “most buyers are smarter than us and can fix the things that break on the coach”…We asked this person, the daughter of the dealership owner, to have the owner call us to review our expereince and perhaps help us with the items that have yet to be fixed. We have been waiting now over a month for his call!
Until states pass Lemon Laws for RV’s (some states have them I think but not Michigan) some dealers and manufactures will continue to sell poor quality products with limited customer service.
Hopefully this economic turndown will continue to eliminate the poor manufacturers and lousy dealers. Most of us will travel to find a quality product, great service, and people who care for their customers. I guess we just did not drive far enough!
Alpenliter, I agree with you in regards to the more gadgets more problems. But, let’s not throw the RV manufacturers under the bus for this, The market demands newer and spiffer stuff. They rely on their supplier to deliver a relatively trouble free product. Guess what, it does not work as advertised. But they can’t wait for full test results as the competition will beat them to it. It’s a tough trade, no matter how you look at it. Thank you for your well thought out comments and input.
Donnette, I know what you mean and have gone through. Sometimes just paying a third party to correct the issue is an easier answer. Life is too short to worry about such things that you paid so much for not to just get enjoying it. Thanks for sharing your experience and thought on this with us.
Bon McDonnel, You have a great attitude, one we should all adapt to. Thanks for your very insightful, but positive inpot.
Jerry Shea, Glad to hear of your great experience with Camping World. I too have heard great reports on some of their service location. Thanks for your input, I know many people are very interested in this type of recommendation.
Bill Mittel, Sorry your purchase experience was not that good. When you say the dealer did not know the engine size, it comes as little surprise. The changing engine sizes, in particular horse power, has little to do with normal servicing. That said, I agree, it could be viewed poorly. Thanks for your input.
After reading through all these comments I’m starting to feel pretty lucky. We have a 2003 Jayco Granite Ridge we bought in N. Carolina and other than a few minor gliches have been trouble free for 40K miles. There were definitely some quality issues (cheap drawer slides that broke and basement doors that didn’t fit correctly). One of my “lessons learned” was that I better have a basic tool kit with me when we travel, because all that bouncing and bumping going down the road makes for a lot of loose stuff. One other lesson is that most Ford Truck dealers are not interested in servicing a 31′ RV no way, no how. I did buy Good Sam’s CSP extended warranty, but haven’t used it and am wondering if it’s worth the money. What do you folks think?
Sue, WOW! You sure know your stuff. On a ‘95 rig, probably built in ‘94, it is not a surprise to have some issues. However, your comments on the basic construction are certainly valid. All great input, thank you.
Dan Morell, Great to hear from a happy, happy camper. And you are right. Frig’s break, get over it. I would be pleased too. Thanks for the positive input and upbeat tone.
Tim Millington, Oh yes, ISO standards would definately make a big difference. The Montana product is a popular choice and represents a great value. Thank you for taking the time to post and your valued input.
Chuck, That is not acceptable from any dealer/manufacturer. I would contact the manufacturer and get things corrected. Thank you for not naming the dealer in question. Although it sounds like they are totally in the wrong, slamming them without their ability to respond may be equally wrong. Thank you for your input and I hope you get the product corrected to what you should have got in the first place.
Steve White, I know where you are coming from. They love to tell you how many North American dealers there are for your Ford Chassis, but just mention it’s in an RV! Good night nurse! “Hmmmmm……………We don’t work on those…..but there was a guy about 50 miles from here that did, but I think he closed up” Next!
Thanks for your input Steve. Best of luck.
I see all the usual complaints about problems. I have experienced every one of those printed here, plus a whole lot more. When each problem is traced back to the root cause, it reveals a much clearer picture. Of all my problems that were traceable, 99% were caused by human error. The remaining 1% was material failure.
Two things I would like to point out. One, problems with RV manufacturers, with component vendors and with dealers/repairs are not exclusive to the United States. The second is, that I don’t believe problems are exclusive to just our era.
A couple of examples of number one above are; repairs I’ve had done in Canada were of similar low quality, and parts installed in new RVs that were made in China and other countries.
To address my second claim; as a kid growing up post WWII, my dad taught me the “right way” to custom fabricate and repair things. I thought that his “right way” was the norm. I found out later that the “right way” was the exception in the real world of mass production.
However, my dad’s principles are also my principles. When I discover a problem, I start analyzing for a solution. I do complain of course, but those responsible for the problem don’t listen anyway, so I now repair or fabricate for my own solutions. I am also my own quality control inspector and won’t accept anything less than 100% from myself. I am lucky though, not everyone can do it my way.
Three years of repairing one problem after another in my 2005 Keystone Laredo fifth wheel, have kept me busy, but I know things are done the “right way” and I haven’t lost weeks of time just sitting and waiting for repairs to be completed.
Another thing in the RV industry is that there’s a greater percentage of problems per unit sold than there is in other industries. One reason for that could be that RVs are a product sold only to a specialized body of buyers. RVs are almost “luxury” items, not essential to our survival. (I say almost because some people really do live in them or are full-timers). This reason alone instills a different attitude in RV designers, assemblers, and repair people when compared to products of necessity.
Attitude seems to be everything, and that hasn’t changed since Cain and Able. We can always remedy the problems, but we can’t always remedy the attitudes.
What I don’t see are viable solutions. Any good ones out there?
I agree with Tim Millington. I too have been in quality for 35 years with a company known for quality, Michelin. The RV manufacturer is responsible. If the supplier is sending him defective components he needs to find a new supplier. Belive me when I say that “our” O.E. customers (Toyota, Honda, Ford) will not put up with an inferior product.
One issue that I have not been able to understand is the Chinese tire problem. Why on earth do the RV manufacturers put up with this? I just changed all four tires from my “07″ 35ft. Mountainer. Two of the five were already bad. I was not going to wait on the other three to fail. They were “Mission” brand, a nice “western” sounding brand name from China. I replaced them with Michelin Rib’s. To me that is the best insurance policy I could get. RVers don’t be fooled. My friend just replaced his 7 yr. old tires from his fifth wheel with Goodyear. After looking at them I didn’t have the heart to tell him they were made in China.
Brent,
Your tires and your friend’s tires certainly lasted a lot longer than the ultra-cheap Chinese ones that came with my Laredo. I bought the new fiver in February of 2006 and by April I had to replace all of the tires except the spare. The miles traveled in two months of camping? Less than 4000.
Fred, You may very well have a good point in regards to the ability of previous generations to re-work or repair a problem. Today, there are many people that are not what you would say are “Hands On People” Additionally when a person had an issue with a new, or near new, product, only his neighbour heard about it. Now, via the internet through blogs, forums and the like, the world hears about it 10 minites later.
Thanks for taking the time to post your great comments.
I am on my second Monaco Class A RV. I have been very impressed with their 800 line tech support. They talk you through the trouble shooting steps to your problem, and usually get to the root cause.
I have experienced many problems that turned out to be a loose connection, electrical grounds in particuar. Vibration is a fact of life for an RV.
I must admit, I must truly be blessed, I bought a 95 Prowler 5th wheel in 2002, used it every weekend April through November until 2008. I had a toilet valve and a relay on the furnace go bad, thats it. Prior to that I owned a 1989 Wilderness for three years with no problems. Thank you Lord.
John,
Thanks for the link –http://www.rv.org. Lots of great stuff here even before paying anything for membership.
We bought our 2008 Winnebago Sightseer in April last year, and have had few problems-all were mfg. related. We were however, sad to see our dealer close up. They were always more than fair and have fixed everything right the first time. In addition- they washed our rig free. La Mesa still has at least two other locations, but none close to us- we hope nothing else happens in the warrantee period.
Peter, this was obviously a popular topic and a hot-button issue for many. Thanks for your input and insight as well as all the other responses from everyone. I’m continually enlightened by what I learn from fellow rv’ers- thank you!
-Drew
I took delivery of a 40ft 2009 Itasca Ellipse class A diesel in June. With all that I had read, I was prepared for lots of bugs and headaches. I was also worried that the factory had cut staff and hours while ours was on the line. But, I’m happy to report that the important components have all given us good service so far. The usual latches, windows, doors and a few crossed cables have been easy to repair–generally by my screwdriver. There are a few items, like window blinds and furniture slides that you have to constantly fuss with. And you need to re-read the manuals constantly to understand how the mechanical aspects work.
But, so far I’m very pleased with the quality of my Winnebago-made coach
Phil Schoner, Technical support on-line or phone can do wonders in reducing issues, or at least resolving them. Glad to hear of you luck with Monaco products. Thanks for your input.
Jim Smith, Good for you. There are people that have had near zero issues with a particular coach or trailer. I believe there are probably similar stories with fairly new rigs too. Thanks for the comment and your participation.
Drew, Thank you, I think we all learn through this type of exchange. I guess it is a topic that may hit home with many people. Thank you for your comments.
Jerry Batt, It’s always great to hear positive response on a topic like this. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experience with us.
I purchased my 2nd 08 Allergo Bus last summer. We have had all of the above problems listed either on the 06 or the new one. Yes “Bob” fixed the problems but the time to get them fixed was really nerve racking. On the 06 the Hyd oil cooler blew out on the road in Richmond, Va. then the Transmission line Burnt thru and ruined the Transmission in WV.(had to be towed 50 miles) on our way to the FMCA Rally in March, then Frieghtliner sent me to a Allision dealer and I got to pick up the Coach in MAY. On the way home it over heated again and I just got tired of it and got an 08.
The 08 had its problems but all small compared to the last one. Just slides not going out without a little extra push, the awning not retracting on windy days, and a waterline for the shower burst in Skagway one night, someone traveling with us just happened to have a fitting to repair it. they use the cheaper waterlines instead of a pex tubing. All in all they build a great coach for the money but their quality control still needs to Step It Up a Level. I do carry a full mechanics set of tools,(7 draws) in the one bay on a slide out. You do have to be handy to keep them going. Great article and wonderful feed back.
I suspect that many or most of the problems have their origin in the factory, probably because it doesn’t take too much skill to, for example, to staple things together (fit & finish), cheap materials, and possibly a lot of employee turnover due to low pay. Having visited a couple of factories, that was my observation. BTW, my 1997 Holiday Rambler Alumalite, bought used a year and a half ago and having had 10 years of use, is probably as close to being in perfect condition as anything you could find.
I’ve often thought of trading up from the old ‘89 Allegro, but having read all of this I’m sticking with the old ‘tried & true’. It is from a simpler time, carb vs elec fuel inj., yet still is new enough with all the mods to be more than comfortable and reliable. I know almost every inch of it, & what I can’t repair, I can at least point the mechanic in the right direction. Thanks for making me happier with what I already have!
billk, Wow, you have had issues. Many people would probably throw in the towel if they had to go through all of that. Good you carry lots of tools, generally they usually get a good workout, at least for the first year or two. Thank you for your input.
Bob, I don’t entirely agree with you in regards to the majority of the problems starting from the RV manufacturer. Components not assembled by the RV maker like refrigerators, key pads, A/C units, engines and accessories, back up cameras and much, much more also fail, yet were operating perfectly when they left the factory. In those instances, and there are many, the RV maker gets the blame but really had little control or fault. I do, however, agree fully with you on an older coach. Once the bugs are ironed out, they generally will run trouble free. Thanks for sharing your experience with us and your input.
Pkunk, Yes, there is a lot to be said about trued and tried designs of the past. Thanks for commenting. It’s nice to hear from people like yourself that want to stay with older technology. I don’t think you are alone.
We have had problems with our motrohomes. one was new and the other used. The one that was new had the most problems and most of them cold have been caught by good quality control. Not all of the problems were satified by the manufacturer or the vendor. So we still have some issues that won’t get adreses ever. If Toyota or Honda took over the RV industries, I bet the quality would increase 100 fold!
We purchased a new 38′ Travel supreme in April 06 and have been living in it full time ever since. We have been extreamly happy with it. Have had a few very minor problems. Went back to the factory last fall and they went overboard fixing things that we were not that concerned with. I’m sorry that they have since gone out of business. We will keep this motorhome as long as possable as we will never find another as well made for the same money.
Gail Clark, It is probably not that surprising that the new units had more issues than the used. However, had the records been available since the used was new, the story may be different. That seems to be the point here, new quality may be in question. It might not be as simple as saying that if Toyota or Honda took over, they don’t build near “one of a kinds” like the RV makers do often. Additionally they have home like appliances and equipment that has to work after, and while bumping down the road. I still say, don’t throw them under the bus.
Thank you for your input and your sharing of your ideas with us.
Bill Chaffee, The Travel Supreme is a well built top level coach. The fact that the company had to shutdown should not affect most of your warranty. Things like, microwaves, refrigerators, back-up cameras, etc. may likely warranty most of their products if you contact them within their warranty period.
Thank you for your participation in this topic discussion, your input is informative and appreciated.
Not to make light of anything above; I have experienced most of them over my 20 years of RV’ing.
Reading the discussions of this thread, I find that sometimes the RV Buyer is the the biggest “Fault” in the equation. High disposable purchase price does not guarantee a turn-key problem-free vehicle. Some equate one-to-one with some people’s expectations as if this was an automobile purchased. And, it’s not the same….in any sense of the word. Simply put: ” we are not being a more demanding consumer up front at the time of purchase.”
In the pure joy of RV ownership, our eyes glaze over to very visible fit-n-finish blemishes, an annoying fit, the small squeak…all.is.well…until the first true inconveince pops up. Then, we suddenly begin to add up all the minor items to form a decent sized list.
Tolerable items now become a sizable gripe avenue with the builder. We forget that appliances are not warrantied by the home builder, etc. We just want satisfaction of what was rightfully expected in the first place. But here’s the rub.
If we are to place better “demand” for product before we drive it off the lot..then you might see some improvement. Your purchase check is the only “hold” you have over the seller. Have him prove to you that everything is operational. I don’t mean the default walk-thru demonstration.
Take it for a 30 mile drive down winding roads, the freeway, up hills, etc. Have the slideouts demonstrated 10-12 times, Add water to holding tank, flush it. Run the genset for several hours under load. Set the antenna, run TV, stereo. Live in it overnight on the sales lot. Don’t commit to payment until every system check’s out. Then sleep in it for 2 more nights right on the dealer’s lot before you even think of taking off on a 500+ trip. These efforts will reveal any factory hiccups &
There is no joy when you experience the inevitable; but the initial “check-out” that you do is the most important thing that you must do. It should not be an instructional walk-thru…but rather a “performance” proofing display that everything in this complex set of wires, relays and appurtances….really works just as promised. Play the devil’s avocate: assume nothing performs until you personally see it for yourself. Then, and only then, should you drive it away from the dealer’s lot.
To hurry the buying process is tantamount to depriving one of the parties of their
primary right in a contract: the right to refusal. Use this leverage at purchase time & you will never regret it.
David, You make a very valid point which would probably eliminate many of the faults that were existing at the time of the build finish. However, it seem that a fair portion of issues happen after a few thousand miles, new unrealted problems. An awning motor fails, a slide starts failing, the microwave stops, an A/C unit fails, etc, etc. But, you are quite right, your suggestion would save a bundle of frustration and at least guarantee a mostly trouble free begining. Thank you for your very detailed comment. Input like yours is very much appreciated.
One has to wonder if any of the owners or managers at the various RV manufacturers ever stop to think about the general decline of the “Detroit Big 3″ in the 70’s and 80’s when imports demonstrated a real commitment to mproved quality while Detroit thought the quality of the 50’s was good enough to compete.
I just bought my first new RV. A Coachmen Freelander. While I am still generally happy with it I am definatly very unimpressed with not only the quality of their manufacturing process but also ther lack of a “final inspection” check and even some very poor design decisions.
One simple example of the failure in the design phase is the location of the water drains. When I was winterizing I discovered that the water was directed to drain onto the LP tank and across the electrical connections for fuel level. While this is no big deal in itself and when the connections fail I will be the one that has to pay, if anyone of the design “engneers” ever bothered to spend 30 seconds thinking about the location they would have specified the location to be 5″ to the rear. The drains would have missed the LP tank and Coachmen would even have saved about a foot worth of water pipe on every unit.
Manufacturing quality comes in question when I can see the ground at the junction between the coach and chassis behind the driver seat.
Final inspection is lacking based on the failue to provide the proper cover for basement storage area or to include fuse information that was not two years out of date and 100% wrong in the owner’s manual.
Its a good thing Honda, Toyota, Hyundai etc don’t enter the RV market as it would be real interesting to see any of the current RV manufactrers or part suppliers survive against 5 year 50,000 mi bumper to bumper warranty they would bring to the market.
All the above comments are very interesting.
My 1st motorhome was a ‘92 Bounder with the small Cummins. We loved the unit, but was underpowered for pulling trailers with a vintage car in it. It was well made and well thought out, efficient use of space.
Then we bought a ‘94 Europremier with the 8.3 ltr. Cummins. Now we had the power to pull and with the air suspension a much better ride. It was put well together with good quality materials. However, it was not well thought out asfar as use of space. The electrical side of it was poorly planned.
Now we have a ‘98 Monaco Dynasty again with the 8.3 ltr Cummins, and no slides. This unit is by far the most expensive of the three, but paid far less for it than the first two.We love everything about this unit. My hobby is vintage cars, for one I like to keep things simple and effective. Not that this motorhome is simple, but I don’t want to go any newer than this one. All these new gadgets are great untill it breaks down. And most of them are not needed.
Just look at the share prices of all the motorhome manufacturers and you see how much they have come down in price, and commonsense will tell you that this will have negative consequences in the product they sell.
Respect , responsibility, honesty and hard work are commodities in short supply and this too will have negative consequences in the quality of ones output. If you do find a technitian with these, he soon will set up shop for himself and soon he will sit in an office and hiring less qualified technicians.
Anything mobile manufactured in the last 10 years is way to complicated, way too many items that will brake down, and thus way too expensive too keep up.
Our first camping was down in tents. I now tell my wife, if a 36ft motorhome without slides is not big enough, we better stay home.
As was mentioned before, you have to be a handiman with a technical background, to fully enjoy the best hobby around, RVing!!
Hi Lug_Nut,
Wow! A lot of response on this topic. Interesting to hear the varied experiences. Regarding some of the questionable dealers, it demonstrates the need to do your homework about their reputation.
The same goes for looking for your new or used RV’s. The RV consumer group at http://www.rv.org. is a great RV consumer resource and organization. Last year I purchased a membership for about $170.00 shipped to my door. At first, I was a bit hesitant thinking I could research on my own. I soon realized the value of the books and cd’s was worth it’s weight in gold. It is refreshing to see the independent point of view. All the legwork has been done for you.
Having worked in the transportation industry all my life, I think the most important equipment starts at the frame structure. As in any engineered object, you build up from a solid frame. A plane, a house or car and buildings. RV’s are homes built on wheels. A complicated piece of equipment, and after all, a piece of machinery that will have some problems. How serious and frequent can sometimes be determined by the owners maintenance intervals. Being handy and familiar with your RV will keep both of you going for a long time. Not all motor homes or 5 ‘ers are created equal. And if you buy used, make the sale subject to an inspection at a shop of your choice, it’ll be money well spent. You can also learn how to inspect a potential coach yourself.
Cheers,
John
Roger, You are quite correct, but such poor design is found throughout the industry. I recently observed a fuel filter that was installed a distance above the muffler. Any leak, or during replacement, the fuel would land directly onto the muffler. Oh, and let’s not start on the inverted mirror issues. Thanks for the great input and best of luck with your new coach.
rene blei, There is a lot to say about a non-slide coach. Less issues and more comfort in overnight rest stops that would prevent slide use. It’s the old K.I.S.S. (Keep It Simple Stupid), that back to basics that seems to be flawless.
It is also great to hear someone, like yourself, express their love for the hobby. Thank you for your comments on this topic.
John, Thanks for the link. The RV Consumer reference is certainly a valuable tool to assist in selecting a coach. Some parts of the required maintenance on an RV can be enjoyable, or at least satisfying. But, either way, the maintenance must be done, and you can learn a lot if you choose to do some or all yourself.
Thanks John for your participation and always great input.
This is a great blog and service for all RVers. Recently I talked with an RV Solar supplier who has an excellent reputation for quality work. He owns a Class A and shared with me that when he talked with the President of a large Class A RV manufacturer about quality control, the Pres. said, “Look we are aware of the problems, but we make the most profit by getting them online and out into the sales lots as fast as possible. Yes! There may be over 100 defects with each new RV, but the new owners have several years to work the kinks out under warranty.”
I sat there flabbergasted at the first hand report. If you want to know what’s wrong with the American manufacturing industry…this is a prime example. And, of course, it extends to GM, Ford, etc. Money, money, money and to hell with quality. American industry deserves to go down the tubes and let new ones come in to focus on quality, qulaity, quality.
As for myself, after doing the research with RV Consumers and various websites and visitn gthe factories, I selected a Class C motorhome. Only two were rated five stars: Born Free and Lazy Daze. I selected the LD because of its outstanding reputation, floor plans, and costs about $30,000 below BF. Our sis a 1998 MB (bought it last year) and it runs and looks like a brand new model. We love it. After 20,000 miles of our own driving, the only thing to replace was a waterpump for $95.
It’s the responsibility of each RV owner to do the necesaary homework and research before puchase. Also…demand…yes! demand a higher quality of service and workmanship for each RV out there. I just read that six more RV companies in the Oregon area are on the verge of bankruptcy (Eugene Register Guard). Having had my own business for 20 years…this extreme capitalist economy of America rewards the fittest and toughest as survivors. Maybe it’s time for RV companies to finally focus on QUALITY. Interesting to note that at the FMCA Rally yesterday in Indio, one seminar leader said Coachnet tracked its call for help for 1) Tire Problems, and 2) Slideouts (getting stuck or not working). Both Born Free and Lazy Daze do not have slide outs! Is there a message here?
Davidsan, Wow, great input. Quality is certainly an issue with many RV owners. It’s hard to believe any one in the industry would make such a statement as you quoted. Thank you for your added participation and super input.
My first RV purchase was a brand new 2000 Arctic Fox 22H. I only had one problem that was due to poor workmanship and a few minor issues over the years and one AC unit replaced. It never went back to the factory or a dealer for anything. It was about as good as a TT could get.
Not sticking with what I know, I choose to purchase a brand new 2009 Komfort 256ts. The workmanship has been aweful to say the least. It has been to the factory after a serious electrical failure while traveling and the dealer once each and I have fixed more problems myself in the first two months than I ever had to do with the Arctic Fox in eight years. Only two or three of two dozen problems were supplier part issues. ALL the rest are on the workers at the Komfort factory not the part suppliers.
Jeff, I’m sorry to hear of your issues with your Komfort 256t unit. Further more it is interesting, albeit disappointing, that most are factory, not supplier related. Has the quality gone downhill over the years? Perhaps it has. It may be from a lack of skilled people to replace those from former years. It seems young people today don’t want to do things with their hands and are only interested in computer related work. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and for your input on this topic.
I have been reading all the thoughtful comments on this subject with great interest. I have a few comments to add, from the viewpoint of a long-time Rv dealer. As a dealer for 47 years and an avid RV user for somewhat longer, I have experienced many of these same things, from the vantage point of a user or a servicing dealer, and often both. My experiences have been with many different brands, as I generally use a different new or used unit every trip.
Our procedure at our dealership for pre-delivery service of a new motorhome involves 6-8 hours of testing and inspection of systems and appliances. Plus a
1 to 2 hour demo for the customer to show it all works. Longer time on the pre-delivery service for used motorhomes and somewhat less for trailers. That is aside from any needed repairs and cleaning. If I am going to use a unit myself, I take it home a few days before my trip to get familiar and make sure I know how everything works. I usually have a thing or two that doesn’t seem to work. I call or bring it back and it usually is something that I just didn’t understand. Then, when I get back from my trip, my wife usually has a short list of things that didn’t work right and I have another short list. Stuff that worked at the dealership, worked at home, but after bouncing around over the road for a few hundred miles, it doesn’t work! Or a screw jiggled loose, latch stopped working, etc. Sometimes it is something serious but usually it is not.. It is always annoying. My point here is that this is a very complicated machine — a truck plus a house with all the systems and appliances that a stationary home would have. We all remember what it is like to move into a newly-built home. There is a period of de-bugging. But then we bounce this newly-built motorhome around over highways and bumpy backroads for a few hundred miles. Stuff jiggles and shakes.
This is not to say that manufacturers couldn’t improve their quality control. They could and should. Some do a far, far better job than others. Higher price doesn’t necessarily mean higher quality, but within a size and class, it often does. There are poorly built diesel pushers that are very expensive and there are high quality, trouble-free small trailers that are not very expensive. Even a well-built diesel motorhome usually has more problems because there is so much more that can go wrong.
As RV owners move up the ladder, over the years, from a travel trailer to a mini to a motorhome and then to the big diesel, there is often a perception that quality has gone down as the price has gone up. Complexity has also gone up and along with it, more things that can go wrong. Plus, we all expect more quality at $200,000 than we did at $20,000. Not all manufacturers can deliver that extra quality, especially if they are trying to be cost competitive.
With regard to the subject of the quality of dealer service, I could go on for pages. At our dealership we are getting a big increase in the volume of service work on diesel motorhomes that we did not sell. Partly because we have heavy duty lifts and qualified technicians that can do the work, but partly because the number of dealers that can do the work is shrinking. And it will shrink still more in coming months and years. We are very happy to get this work because most of it comes in the fall and winter when our NW Indiana dealership needs all the business we can find. But there are problems when you must bring your motorhome for service at a dealer that does not sell that brand.
Servicing the refer, A/C, appliances, chassis, etc. is no problem. Even re-skinning, roofs, collision repair, etc are no problem if the manufacturer will supply the parts. But when it comes to electical systems and complex body parts that are only found on that particular brand, the dealer is at a huge disadvantage if it is not a brand that they sell. No service manuals, no parts catalog, no brand-specific training, no relationship with people at the factory. It will take longer, cost more and the liklihood of a bad job is greater. Most of the service complaints we get come from trying to help out an owner with a brand motorhome that we are not familiar with.
Al Paschen, Your comment is very well thought out and certainly highly qualified. It is great to hear from a dealer’s view on this subject. I think you have summed up what may very well be the entire issue and cause regarding RV quality. Thank you for taking the time to write such a full response. Your participation and valued input is appreciated.
Parts availability isn’t exactly on the subject of “RVQuality”, but it does have a lot to do with the quality of the RV experience. I have some additional comments from the dealer perspective.
First off, some dealers have thousands of $ worth of appliance parts in the back room, out of sight. Many do not have any or have mostly obsolete parts. Obsolescence is a huge expense for dealers that do try to stock adequate parts. Appliance manufacturers do a good job supplying parts drawings and price lists. Getting the right appliance part in a timely manner should be no problem if a competent parts person has the correct model and serial number (of the appliance, not the RV) Our dealership is near the source of many parts and can often get next day delivery.
How often has the complaint been heard that, ” I had my unit at the dealer for 3 weeks in the middle of camping season and they still don’t have the right part”? It happens and there is nothing more frustrating for the owner of the RV and for the Dealer. Why it is still happening in a 50-year-old industry is hard to understand. It is a problem that must be fixed and some manufacturers are trying.
The dealer ends up looking like a dunce when we cannot get the right part in a timely fashion. Sometimes it is our fault, but usually we are just as much a victim as the RV owner. Here’s how it happens:
Coach parts are usually the culprit. Only a small handful of RV manufacturers have a part number for every part used in their product. Most do not. There is usually no parts diagram, no parts list, no exploded diagrams, etc. Wooden pieces, fabrics, carpet, cabinet latches and many other items have no part number, come in different colors and patterns, and are sometimes changed in mid-season without notification to the dealer. Ordering coach parts from the manufacturer often involves a phone call or fax or e-mail describing the part in essay form. Often a hand drawn sketch is a help in describing what is needed. Even with a skilled parts person at both ends of the phone line, the odds of getting the right item in the right color are not good. This is a horrible situation that must be addressed by the manufacturers. A few are doing it right. As you might expect, Winnebago is the leader on this. I don’t know about the other makers of the big diesels
Delivery time also varies widely. A few of the more sophisticated manufacturers can supply an in-stock part overnight, for a special handling fee. A few more are trying and getting close. Many aren’t even trying. Coach parts that must be manufactured to order — like body panels, cabinetry, fabrics, etc — present a special problem. It can take weeks to get it built. Then it must be crated and shipped via truck. If at all possible this kind of work should be done off-season — it cannot be done quickly.
Most consumers are not thinking about parts availability when they buy a motorhome or trailer. They are thinking about floor plan, decor, price, etc. It’s like insurance — no one likes to think about it till the day you need it. If prompt service is really an important consideration, then picking the right manufacturer and the right dealer should be the first step in purchasing the next RV.
Al Paschen, This is very valued input. Hopefully, those that have been following the comments on this topic are still keeping an eye on it. You are answering some of the questions that many have wondered about. Again, thank you for your welcomed and valued input.
i have to disagree with you on the quality of the rv’s today. i bought a desert fox 28 ks trailer which is the middle of the road one. the manufacturer stood behind the two problems i had without any quibbling. one problem was a vendor’s fault and the other was over glueing of the black water valve. i am very happy with the build quality and would buy another one from northwood manufacturing in a heart beat. i feel very sorry for customers who have to fight with companies to get simple things fixed that never should of left the factory. thoese companies will either fail in the future or have already failed.
mcgillagorilla, It sounds like you are one of the people that believes quality has not changed in the RV industry. The problem is, as of late, there are fewer and fewer that think that way. My article speaks generally, and not specifically, at the issue. There are, of course, many that have had little, if any issues with their new RV, but these are not the majority of the purchaser’s. Thank you for your input on this topic.
We are new to camping with a travel trailer ( camped from horseback until now ). We are looking at the Keystone Cougar and the Wilderness. We will be both hooked up and dry camping in all seasons. This is our first unit and would like any information possible from seasoned professionals.
thank you for your time,
Shallyn
Shallyn, I can’t give you personal experience with the Keystone Cougar product, but have friends that have them that are very happy. They have certainly built and sold many accross the country. Wishing you the best and hope you enjoy it as much as we have over the years. Thank you for your input. Enjoy.
Shallyn, you will want to look at today’s news regarding Fleetwood, manufacturer of Wilderness. Fleetwood announced that they are discontinuing their travel trailer manufacturing! Fleetwood is betting the farm on their Motorhome business. A pretty risky bet!
This means that Wilderness and other Fleetwood travel trailers have become orphans, overnight. Fleetwood claims that they have established a fund to cover warranty claims on travel trailers. Exactly how that will work out remains to be seen. How long parts will be available is very much in doubt.
Eventually, some other manufacturer may buy the Wilderness name. The same scenario probably applies to Trail-Lite, formerly manufactured by Monaco ……… and maybe others. These are times when buying from a good, stable local dealer becomes very important. Will that dealer be willing and able to handle warranty problems if the manufacturer cannot provide backup?
Everyone should be aware of what happens when a manufacturer goes out of business and then sells the Brand to another manufacturer. The buyer does not buy the whole business. They typically buy just the assets, not the libilities. Their warranty obligation evaporates into thin air! The dealer and the consumer are left high and dry. That happened to our dealership once, many years ago, and we vowed to never let it happen again. We ended up footing the bill for a lot of repairs that should have been covered by warranty.
I have not investigated brands other than the ones we sell, so I cannot speak to the risks of buying other brands. We have great confidence in Jayco, Winnebago, Forest River Puma and Dutchmen, which we handle.
But, don’t be frightened by my negative comments regarding orphan brands. This is the perfect time to buy a new travel trailer. Interest rates are low, prices are competitive and the good dealers are trying extra hard to make sales and provide outstanding service. Just pick one of the many good, solid local dealers and investigate the manufacturers, as you are doing via your posting.
Al, They can’t bet much on the farm as they filed chapter 11 yesterday. While operations will still continue in a fashion, it’s not positive news. I agree with you on not being frightened by buying an out of business brand. There are lots of good buys, far exceeding the value of warranty. Go for it. Thank you for your input.
The rv industry will builds over the long term what the people are willing to buy. Buyers have accepted for a long time, the concept that , you just have to work out the bugs during the first year of ownership. This holds true even more so for motor home buyers. The industry will build a better product when the people refuse to pay high prices for poor quality. If rv buyer demand fairly priced, high quality , and fuel efficient rvs, the industry will either adjust or go out of business. The fact that the rv industry led the way into the current economic mess is a fairly strong indicator that more than high fuel prices and tight credit were driving the decline of the rv industry. The future of the rv industry will be fantastic for any company capable of building high quality, honestly priced, fuel efficient rv’s with long term comprehensive warranties and truly functional sales and service network. If I were a younger person, this is the type of industry, In which I would invest my future,
I agree with much of your comments. Perhaps now that the market has really tightened up, we may see better quality and a more non-accepting purchaser, as far as quality shortages are concerned. Thank you for taking the time to participate and make your voice heard.
Yes, hopefully better quality and other improvements will come out of all this. It is true that the RV industry led the way into this recession as it did in the 1970s and again in the 1980s. RVs also led the way out of those previous recessions, six months or so before the rest of the economy recovered. I always thought it was because RV buyers are better informed than the general public and they sensed the downturn and the upcoming recovery before others did. And manufacturers did respond to those earlier downturns with lower profile, sleeker units, overdrive, lighter weights, more diesels and even LP engine conversions. We’ll see how it turns out this time.
Quality does not exist! It apparently died years ago. Purchase of a Sunnybrook RV,
Lets see, TV antenna did not work from factory as well as all cable hookups resulting from someone at the factory driving a nail or staple into the wires. Electric water heater not working from day 1 due to improper installation. No air conditioning in rear bedroom thanks to…. factory installing the AC unit backwards. Pilot light in oven non functional due to improper assembly. No power to slider unit , again due to factory neglect. Leakage in slide out due to improper installation at factory.
Hope it gave them a big laugh when this lemon left the factory equal to the one I will have when they lose the jobs they didn’t do
Al Paschen, Only time will tell. The positive side is that the real skilled people are hopefully the last to be let go, therefore a quality improvement may well be seen. Like the construction industry, when times are good they will hire anyone that can hold a hammer. When times change, like now, the true craftsman will shine. Thank you for your wonderful input on this topic.
Ron, I’m sorry for your issues with a product that should deliver at least half what you hoped. Perhaps this economic change may result in a total change in what we have been used to when it comes to quality. Thank you for your participation and input on this topic.
It is important to take note of the fact there are many fine people and many truly quality rv products out there. However, for the individual consumer who spends a lot of money, on what is often a life long dream, just one poorly made rv, coupled with an uncooperative service center and there goes the reputation. Rvs today are much better than they were in the 70’s, that ought to get someones attention!, But the more elaborate they become, the more complex they become, the more expensive they become, the greater the expectation of the consumer.The industry needs to stop the long standing practice of pretending that they have no responsibility for the multitude of components that goes into their products. They selected the component, they put it in place, They should be responsible for its performance. More importantly they should fix it if it goes bad. Let the manufacturer collect from the component supplier on the warranty not the consumer. It would be wild if the auto industry sent you to the hundreds of component manufacturers in each car for warranty service. There .is quality in the new rvs, even many of the companies who have gone out of business. Until the rv industry achieves a standard equal to the other large consumer product manufactures, many people wont believe it.
PHDiesel, You may have a point regarding the expectations of purchasers paying far more money today for their dream machine. However, there seems to be a very high frequency of issues that occur on today’s built RV’s and many would say it is much higher than that of past units. Thank you for your input.
Ron, I wonder why your dealer didn’t catch some of those problems before you got the unit, and why the problems didn’t show up at the demo during delivery. I don’t want to throw stones at someone else’s work but many of these problems seem like they didn’t develop on the way home. We sometimes joke about the dealership being the final station on the manufacturer’s assembly line. It isn’t a joking matter and it shouldn’t be that way, but it is one last chance to catch the mistakes.
Someone, in an earlier post, suggested insisting on a thorough demonstration that everything works at the dealership on the day of delivery. Seems like a good idea to me. But, I know there is a lot of information to absorb in a demo that only lasts an hour or two. And the new owners are anxious to get home with the new toy. A good idea might be to pause in the dealer’s parking lot after the demo and play with things a while. Better, for everyone, to find a problem there than later at home.
Well, I have to agree with good old Harry Truman on this issue — “The buck stops here.” And here, in this case has to be the RV manufacturer’s doorstep.
No matter who was the original equipment manufacturer, the problems should belong to the RV mfr. It is not hard to take responsibility, it is just inconvenient.
Bad refrigerators? Find another supplier. Delaminating walls? Find a new OEM. Lousy dealer service? Appoint a quality dealer. If there were no finger-pointing or “pass-through” of blame; if these guys were required to back-up what they sell, then I think most of the quality control issues would disappear.
We also need to rid ourselves of all of the apologists in the industry. Did you ever read a poor review in an RV magazine? Was there ever a 5th wheel or diesel pusher that didn’t have a glowing write-up in Trailer Life or MotorHome? Until we have honest discussion and appraisal of these vehicles, it will continue to be difficult for people to make educated decisions.
Having said all this, I must also admit I have had few problems with my RV. But I am not sure why as there are many instances of cheap materials, bad techniques, and slipshod workmanship. I think I was lucky this time; but I am realistic enough to know I might not be so lucky the next time.
Don Simmons
I still think there are good RV manufactures and dealerships out there, however, the bad ones give the entire industry a black eye. Hopefully this economy will cull the bad apples out of the lot. A new RV MH has many complex systems and then take the fact they are all bounced down the road for hours things are bound to come loose. I was really into boating before MHing and that industry has the same problem with quality control. I have a Winnebago Journey 05 that we bought used from the original owners and they have very few problems and so far we haven’t had any problems. My father-in-law is on his third Winnebago and has had really good luck with them. You can’t be a leader in the industry for 50 years without producing a good product for a reasonable price. I’m sure some will crop up, even in a home things occasionally break. As far a the American car industry, I have a Ford Escape Hybrid and its the first Ford product I have ever owned and I love the car, built with real quality and I haven’t have a lick of trouble with it. I can’t say that for some of the Honda’s and Toyota’s I have owned. Sounds like Al Paschen runs a quality dealership and thank you for all your honest input.
Jack Halpin
Jack,, Great input. You may be very right, the reduction in RV production may very well yeild better quality as an end result. We all know, when construction booms, anyone can get a job providing they know which end of a hammer to hold. When times get bad, only the skilled sought after tradesmen remain. This may be what may happen and result within the RV builder’s scope. Thank you for your valued comments.
The question should NOT be “Is There Quality In Today’s RV’s?”
The question SHOULD be “Is their Quality Control in the RV industry?”
The answer is NO. Quality control in manufacturing of RV parts is bad, and Qualify Control in the manufacture of RV’s themselves is worse. The only quality control I can depend on is the person who leaves their inspection tag #7 in my underwear. He or she takes his job seriously.
If inspectors did inspected for quality and employees were held accountable for their job performance, We the consumer would not be taking our RV;s back to the Dealers for initial warrantee work and extended warrantees would not be necessary to purchase.
Quality control on the manufacturing level has some serious problems. I’ve been an RV owner for over 40 years, I think that I’m speaking from a certain level of experience.
RV’ manufacturers have been notorious for buying the lowest cost components, and assembling them with unskilled labor..
Dealers “service” personnel on the most part are poorly trained even though they may be considered “Master Technicians”.
Camping World and their service centers are the crowning touch when it comes to the poorest and least competent service in the RV industry. Since the same company owns Camping World and all of the major RV publications in the industery, they are attempting to create a monopoly in this industry.
How can they justify an hourly service rate in excess of $105.00 per hour, is beyond me.
Perhaps I’m just a cynical old fart, but I’m really tired of getting ripped off every time I need service…
Larry C
Joseph Kleinsmith, I think we’re talking about the same thing. Quality control and those that work assembling the units. I know each worker employed by Newmar prides themselve in good workmanship, and in doing so, are their own QC. They do, however, have an after built QC department. I believe that is faults are found, it is up to the person that installed that component to correct it, after hours on their own time. Thanks for the great fitting comment.
Larry C., I agree that many technicians, or so they may be called, are not properly trained. This has much to do with ther lack of skilled labor, or at least people that really care. This is found throughout the work force, not only the RV industry. I don’t know that your referrence to Camping World is really fair, or for that manner justified. Several friends of mine have used their services and raved about it. One was having a separate dish installed on his ‘09 King Aire. He was very happy. So I guess they also have some good service people. The fact that they have so many service centers probably results in “poor service” stories. It’s a shame we never hear of those that are very happy. Anyway, you made some good points and thank you for your well qualified input.
What about decent design engineering? See http://blog.rv.net/2009/04/tricks-for-a-trek/ for a list of the extensive modifications needed to compensate for poor initial design in a safari treck.
I have dificulty finding sympathy for the companies in Elkhart – they, like GM, are getting what they deserve.
Tom Blackburn, Design engineering certainly has something to do with it. But, often new inovative designs are forced to the market early due to competitive reasons before adequate beta tests have been completed. Thyanks for your input.
Lugnut,
I take issue with “forced to the market early…” That is a conscious decision to put something on the market that is not ready. They have made a choice to take the bucks without regard for the customer. That sounds like the software industry.
Don Simmons
Don Simmons, There are many products that are “Forced to the market early”, and RV are no exception. The thing is, an RV producer wants to be the first with an innovation in hopes to capture a good chunk of that years buyers. Stalling while the design is beta tested, usually results in some other company hearing about it, making it, and putting it out there. Think about it, how many of the builders spent a lot of time testing the full wall slide? Business is business, you have to do and give people what they want, albeit with whatever testing has been done or not.
Thanks for your input on this broad topic.
[...] of RV’s today. It was titled “Is There Quality In Today’s RV’s?” (Link Here if you missed it) It drew many comments with a variety of different points of view. But now, could there be [...]
In my opinion, work product AND quality control has ALWAYS been in the sewer as far as the RV industry is concerned. The only reason that it has appeared to decline is because we as RV owners are becoming more aware of the problems via the internet. Prior to the mass access to blogs and RV forums, the RV industry was able to keep their problems to themselves, while deceiving the public into thinking the ONLY problem was with THEIR coach, or trailer, or whatever.
Dennis, This is a very good point as I stated (Quote) “Is it possible that this apparent quality control level has not really declined, but rather the modern communication formats and media have made these items more well known? Blogs, forums and websites are capable of reaching all corners of the world in a fraction of a second.” It certainly is a portion of this even if quality has declined. Thank you for your valued input on this topic.
This is a great topic – having just watched a wheel literally fall off of my Forest River Cardinal, I was extremely disheartened at the litany of problems that I’ve had with my coach that isn’t over 2 years old. But they have been major problems that literally stop your vacation in its track.
I believe the largest source of frustration for many of us is that this is a recreational purchase – many simply don’t have the construction expertise to know how to construct and deconstruct their coach just like many don’t know how to fix some of the basic components on their cars. We all have different jobs – many auto mechanics and home builders alike wouldn’t even know how to address all of the systems on a modern coach.
I do feel there is an unfair expectation of perfection in these 24000lb rolling homes – no house that I’ve ever lived in was devoid of defects; but rarely do those defects in a house prevent you from living in the home, or cause you to not be able to use your home.
Personally, as long as the drivetrain/driveline are secure (tires, axles, frame, king pin etc) – most of the other quality problems with refrigerators, microwaves, air conditioners etc are not going to be complete show stoppers. Where I do feel the industry needs improvement is the instances of tire failures or improper engineering resulting in wall separation, frame bending, axle failure, slide mechanism malfunctions and such.
I can forgive a microwave that stops working. It was made by Sharp – not the RV builder’s fault. But I’m much less likely to forgive a bent frame, improperly aligned axle, malfunctioning slide-out or tire blow out when used within the expected parameters of a road-faring vehicle.
I guess for me these coaches are vehicles first, and temporary homes second. But if my safety or the integrity of my coach is compromised, then I feel there is a lack of accountability on the part of the manufacturer – after all, it is my life on the line if some catastrophic event occurs at highway speed.
If I just can’t make popcorn for the night in the microwave, I guess a PB&J is in order, but I’m much less likely to be upset.
MY 2007 Bounder sucked on every level, Bought a 79 APOLLO 33ft that is much better made, 440 upgraded, lots of power, handels good for a m600 truck, and the kicker is; I can fix the thing myself!! sorta!
Zee, I agree. Failures of items that cause you to cancel or interupt your vaction are not acceptable. Unfortunitely, they do happen. Everything from blown engines to rad fans flying off, have been experienced. I’m not sure we can paint all RV manufacturers with the same brush. Clearly some are better than others. Thank you for sharing your experience on this topic and your valued input.
merrill rininger, Your statement would support the theory that quality has gone down today compared to years past. Going from an ‘07 to a ‘79 is certainly going back. Perhaps the simpler design and lack of gagets helps reduce the issues. Thank you for your comments on this topic.
We own a Newmar Allstar and am very happy with it. The quality is astounding and the service from Newmar is fantastic. We’re on the road for a year seeing the country with our three kids and we haven’t had a problem that I would classify as “lemon” or poor manufacturing.
Tom Wahl
My experience has been that the factory service is no better than the dealer. My new 2008 Holiday Rambler Navigator was back to Monaco 5 times, many of the issue kept being repeated. No one seemed to have any pride in “doing the job right.” It took threats from a lawyer until I finally got their attention. Luckily, I got my coach back just 10 days before Monaco declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy. Most of the items were addressed this time, but I still have some issues. I did learn that on a coach this expensive, the manufacturer builds in as much as 18% of the price for warranty work. I can’t believe it would be more cost effective and profitable for the manufacturer to spend a little more on QA and produce a better, more reliable unit. But then, in addition to the economy, maybe that’s why so many builders are now either out of business or trying to reorganize. Let’s hope they’ve learned some lessons.
I have been reading these posts and had to send you mine.Last year we bought a 2008 Forest River product. Georgian 373. It is our first R.V. and we have had lots of problems, but the dealer and Forest River have been good at solving them. All but one. On our first trip from Ontario to Florida we had problems with the auto slide out steps. It wanted to keep trying to open. We just started shuting off the power to it when it opened and that would stop the clicking noise . That was Christmas 2008. We took it to the dealer and they said they fixed it along with numerouse other things. We then went back down to Florida in March and the step started doing the same thing again, and finaly stopped working. Back to Outdoor Travel…they said it was fixed. Last summer on our first trip in the spring the stair started agian, this time we had a fire in the control box for the stair. And finished our holiday stepping up on a box and jumping down from the motorhome. Again we took the unit back for repairs and we were told the box was replaced and the control card for the steps was also replaced, all would be fine. Well another summer trip it was “running on”, it kept trying to open until you killed the power and incredible loud clicking noises were coming from it. Again back to the dealer. Again we were told it was fixed. Finaly this past Christmas we drove down to Blue Water in Key West again. And the second day into the trip on the way down…click click again. I had a RV dealer in florida look at it, and were told the motor’s gear was missing teeth and another gear needed to be replaced. But they needed the unit for two days to wait for the parts and get the repairs done. We decided to wait until we were home and not miss any holiday time. I did call our dealer from Florida and left a message about how unhappy we were regarding the ongoing saga of our steps. Upon our return we arranged to bring the R.V. in for repairs in late March or early April as there was no hurry because we did not plan another trip until spring and they said there was no hurry regarding a recall about aluminum trim work from Forest River. Well, it seems that all along Forest River has been making Outdoor Travel deal with the manufacturer of the step as it is a “parts problem not thiers”. And the manufacturer now says that the warranty on thier parts expired just after Christmas and they won’t replace anything. Outdoor Travel says its not thier problem, its the manufacturer of the steps. Now that I have discovered all this great news what would you suggest I do? Every owner of a motorhome I have spoken to says the steps motor and gear should have been replaced the first time the clinking started because it damages the teath on the gears. Please keep in mind that ALL of this has occured under the warranty period from Forest River.
Chris Gentile, I don’t know whether it is fair to judge all factory service by one experience, albeit, repeatable. In defence of Monaco, I know, due the downturn in the economy, many employees were layed off. This left few, to deal with many. Monaco perhaps had more unhappy customers than it would seem others. However, let’s keep in mind the number of units they sell, or sold. It is quite normal to have the more visible issues. I do understand your frustrations, and believe you should have been looked after better. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and your valued input.
James Fram, Sorry to hear of your experience trying to right an issue. There are many poor attitudes in the industry as late. While many of these may well be caused by frustration in this economy, those that pass the buck, will be remembered when things return to being somewhat normal. Manufacturers and dealers should try to work through issues, not ignore them. Thank you for your valued input, and best of luck getting things corrected.
Yom Wahl, Newmar’s seem to yeild less issues, or at least they take care of them prior to it becoming a real big problem. Actually your comments arrives to me on a day that I’m at Newmar’s service. Their service has always been outstanding for me. I find the factory service excellent which has lead me alway to have them and Spartan do 100% of my service for this and my last coach. Having said that, Newmar, like all others, have had issues. Many have been caused, or at least dragged on, by some of the dealers. I’m glad to hear of a sucess story on this topic. Thank you for your positive input.
I find it interesting that so many have so many problems. I must be fortunate that I did my research and found the Tiffin line to be the highest rated MH manufacturer (for the price) on the market.
I have just returned for a four month trip (4615 miles) driving an 05 Allegro Bus. I had no problems on this trip or my previous two trips that totaled an additional 11415 miles.
I have had two minor problems 1) step motor failure (replaced by dealer) and 2) fogged windows (all three were replaced by Tiffin at no charge).
I am very pleased with this level of quality and when it comes time for a new purchase, you can bet it will be another Tiffn product.
CaptTom, Tiffin is certainly one of the 2 or 3 manufacturers that have a good reputation of both quality and service. Again, it is great to such positive posts on this topic. Thank you for your valued input.
we bought a fleetwood revolution new in may 2005 from holiday kamper in spartanburg s.c. after 7-8 mos. 11 -12 trips of 150 mile trips to get it repair and each time they did more damage — cabinets falling off the wall –galley table falling and breaking –cornice with window shade fallin off . ( it took 6 mos. to repair the windshield washer ) we finally got a atty. and file to get our money back as of today may20 th.2009 we still haven’t got our money or a r.v. to used it is setting, rotting to the ground from water leaks the inside wall is full of mold and mildew and caving in behind the wall paper . and now with fltw. in chapter 11 who knows when , the bad thing i turn 70 this yr. thanks to the courts we be to old to safely use it . bud
Bud White, I’m sorry to hear of your delema with your coach. Perhaps you should take another look at the issues and see if someone can not correct all the problems once and for all. There are good qualified dealers out there that may be willing to work with you. As it stands now, it is worthless. It may very well be able to be turned into a reliable unit. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and for your input on this topic.
Hind sight is 20/20! Had we known how poor the quality of Rv’s are we would have never gone fulltimers and just bought a condo somewhere to retire at. We put our life savings into buying a motorhome we could travel in and go see places in this great country of ours but here we are stuck in a RV park and can’t go anywhere. No one wants to take reponsiblity for poor quality manufacturing.
We are being denied to have the differential fixed by Workhorse Industries. The service dept tells them what’s wrong but they state that they won’t pay for repairs.
Who can you turn too? Very frustrating and dishearting that we are stuck with a piece of junk only had for two weeks and can’t take chance of breaking down out in the middle of nowhere. Stuck in Oregon!
Ola Mitchell, Sorry to hear of your frustrations and apparent poor service support. Obviously the unit is off warranty, but what exactly is the warranty period for Workhorse? I would think it would exceed that of the coach maker, but with a milage limit. What was the cause and nature of the differential failure? How much are they asking to repair it? I presume you know the answers to these questions and have no immediate answers. You should contact Navistar yourself and ask for some help on this issue. They are located in Elkhart Indiana (Custom Chassis). I hope you find an answer. Thank you for your input.
Lug_ Nut Thanks for support. My RV is new 2008 Itasca Sunrise still in warranty but workhorse will not give approval for inspection to see what causes noise in rear end. They are saying this is normal on 6 speed Allison transmission that
causes the high pitch humming noise in my right ear while driving at starting 55-65mph.
I bought two weeks ago and only had 1980 miles on it. Does this sound familiar to any one who already owns a Chevy Workhorse custom by GM. I am being told nothing can be done so in other words “Live with it”. To anyone thinking about buying a Motorhome, please test drive it and put it up to at least 60 and hear how it sounds before buying it. Just driving around the block like I did is not enough.
Ola Mitchell, Not being able to actually hear it, I can assume it does make some sound. It is possible that Workhorse believes it is within reasonable spec’s, and they may be correct. The fact that you hear it above all else may indicate it is at a herz range that is particularly penitrating to your earing. Differential whining can sometimes be corrected by re-shimming the the crown gear, I believe. Additionally, the sound may change with different lubricates used, perhaps even synthetic. I guess it may be possible to correct this fairly cheaply. I might be well worth your while to talk to a driveline specialist about this issue. Thanks for sharing this issue with us and your input on the quality issue.
Last year we went through the new rig mill with our brand new Seneca as well. What I saw was speed in manufacturer over quality. The dealer, which is now out of business, was no better. Speed and guess work over quality. It got so bad that I, a former diesel technician, ended up diagnosing and repairing most of the problems myself.
To clarify the speed issue: One of our main problems was BAD wiring shorts. To make a long story short the manufacturer slammed interior panels together and sliced through various wiring harnesses. Screws were driven into fan blades in the microwave and components were never tested to make sure they actually worked before leaving the factory. Doors being so poorly installed that body work had to be done to repair the issues. Simple stuff that can really create big problems after everything is assembled.
At the dealer: The technicians were clearly over-loaded and spent very little time trying to track down a problem. I personally blame flat rate pay but that’s just my opinion. Either way they never correctly diagnosed a single problem.
I can say that since clearing up the initial problems, the rig has been a joy. If something does come up I usually fix it myself or, at the least, diagnose it and tell them exactly what’s wrong before I bring it in. No one has as much interest in fixing your rig as your self. Unfortunately not everyone has the expertise to track down things like wiring shorts. My advice in this area is to write down very very detailed information about the fault. Don’t tell them, write it down….be very specific. The tech won’t have the time or first hand experience with the problem like you do.
Victor, Great detailed comment. Your point on the small issues is well said. You are lucky that you are skilled somewhat to tackle some of the issues. Great advise on writting the problem down instead of just telling them. Good clear communications can certainly help convey the real issue and hopefully the correct repair. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed input.
I was thinking of trading in my current 1998 Fleetwood Tioga SL 32′ Class C motorhome with full basement and buy a newer model with slides. I guess I have to give a second thought after I read all those. We bought the Tioga in 8/2005 and It now has 39K miles on the Ford Triton V10. No issues with the motor, starts with every turn of the key. Everything inside the coach works, stove, water pump, oven, water heater, roof AC and of couse the domestic refrigerator, no leaking pipes, drains and roof. We don’t have slides but we have enough room to move around our motor home and I don’t know if we really need slides in the future because they just simply add more parts to be maintained and they are not user friendly when it is on the road when all slides are in. I guess that I am just being lucky. I had zero problem with the motorhome so far, just routine engine oil changes. Happy camping!
Simon, The Tioga is a very popular coach with a good following of happy owners. Thanks for sharing your experience with us and for your great input.
A shame the Japanese or Europeans arent building Motorhomes here – like they are cars – it would bring the quality of the coach up I think — perhaps this economic downturn forceing some businesses out of business and slowing down the sales will help over all – comments?
Rick, Actually your comment regarding the economic downturn improving the quality was an article of April. Here’s a link http://blog.rv.net/2009/04/is-better-quality-in-the-future-for-rvs/
Thank you for your great input.
I recently retired and after much thought and discussion with the wife, decided to invest in a new Class C motorhome. I visited several local dealers and got the full monty demos on all the variety and lengths of class Cs locally available. I also rented one for several weeks to see what it would be like before taking the plunge. In addition, I thoroughly researched company ratings and web sites for owner comments on all kinds of RVs. As a result, we decided on a 32 ft. class C Itasca Spirit. The local Winnebago dealership had one available on their lot but were sticking close to the retail price. So, I decided to check for other state and out of state dealers for a better price. I found a place in Indiana that undercut the local dealer by 28000 dollars for the same exact unit. Since it was the middle of February, I decided to try the local dealership one more time and take a copy of the offer from the Indiana dealership. Interestingly they matched the deal! Then the fun began. When I arrived at the agreed upon date/time, the RV was not ready because the storage batteries had to be replaced along with the Inverter. During the pre acceptance inspection, we discovered warped closet doors, a damaged mirror and several other small problems that were supposed to be fixed later. After the weather warmed a bit, we took it on a trip to Bozeman Montana. When we arrived at the campground, the rear slideout would not extend and I had to do it manually! 3 hours later and we were able to access the drawers where our clothing was stored and the bed clothes were stored. Ditto the effort when leaving. Upon return we contacted the dealership and it took them 3 tries to get a replacement part (module) to fix it. Since that time we have continued to have multiple problems – Onan generator stopped working due to a broken valve spring (only 13 hours on it), the electric step stopped working, the gray water valve stuck, a screw holding the inside front bed rail portruded from the exterior skin causing cracking in the exterior skin, the air conditioner vent had 2 screws pop out, the front TV vibrated loose from its mount due to wrong size screws, the water valve access panel broke loose, the faucet in the shower would not adjust, and numerous stripped out screws on panels and mouldings started to back out as a result of overtorquing during the assembly process. I contacted the dealership manager and his reply was that it was a mobile home on wheels and I should expect such issues and learn to deal with them. I contacted Itasca and asked to speak with their Quality Assurance manager and repeated the issues I had only to hear that they should be covered under warranty and they try their best to ensure a quality product.
I won’t ever buy from this dealership or Winnebago again if this is how they treat their customers. Maybe I’ll go to Canada next time and see if they have better customer relations and Quality control efforts.
HJ Lamb, Sorry to hear that you experienced so many issues on something you expected to be reasonablely trouble free. The attitude of the dealer is totally unacceptable. A problem or two is expected, the amount you had is not acceptable in anybodies book. Winnebago’s opinion that the items were on warranty was not the issue. You already knew that. I hope somehow things get righted for you. I don’t think buying in Canada would necessarily be much better. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and for your participation in this topic. Great input.
HJ Lamb,
I am so sorry to hear that you have experienced so many troubles with your New Class C motorhome. How could a new couch have so many problems? Must be a lemon! We just came back from a week vacation in Lenanon, NH with our 11 year old Tiogo SL and the coach still runs beautifully and nothing has stopped working yet. This is our fifth year with the coach. Our Onan generator has clocked 376 hours and still runs strong and starts right up everytime we use it. The roof is original and 11 years old and some of the white paint on it started to fade out but it is still no leaks of any kind. I am thinking of recoating the roof with roof paint next year. The roof A/C shell got a 2 inch long crack due to heavy snow fall on the RV cover this past winter and I taped it with Enternal Bond tape. It worked fine during our week vacation. I was told that CLASS C tends to leak easily in the over the cab bunk area due to heavy wind resistance and shakes on the road. Fortunately we have not yet experienced any leaks over the area. Our roof is domed so the water can easily run off. Prior to this coach, I owned a 26 ft travel trailer, which has a flat roof and water tends to collect in some areas. I think that I am very luck so far with this one and it looks like that I have to hang on with it a bit longer. I might never want to buy a new coach with slides and I heard many nightmares about slides problems. Once again. sorry for your trouble and wish you good luck with the dealer.
.Hello all…..most of the posts here allude to new or fairly recently built RVs. I have what is now an OLD Coachmen class A. I bought it used 16 years ago. Let me assure the buyers of the newer units there never was any quality in most RVs. My Coachmen through the years has displayed (not in chronological order):
[1] No inner front wheel wells (a common Coachmen trait). All the mud, water, salt, etc, gets thrown on the back side of the headlights and all over the crappy Atwood dash heater A/C. , power brake unit, etc.
[2] The fresh air intake for the Atwood dash heater- A/C is drawn out of the rt. ft. wheel well, directly behind the rt. ft. wheel. (choke, gag)
[2a] The foregoing were corrected early on with the installation of plastic basement window wells as inner fenders. Fit like OEM….scratch that….fit marvelously. Fresh air properly provided by creating a grilled opening on the rt. side of the front cap with two 8” flex ducts to the modified Atwood heater.
[3] Brackets on the entire length of the rt. frame rail (to body) were only pre-fit tacked in place. All came loose, dropping the floor onto the frame rail. Lt. side brackets WERE finish welded. Rt. brackets properly welded after jacking floor (body) up in place
[4] Hardwood “nailer” in rt. side wall improperly located. Hence, the lag screws holding the floor to the side wall at the front from cap to rt. door were only anchored in 3/16 Luan plywood. Sidewall came loose on an early-on trip and a gap opened up from the dash to the side door. To keep my small dogs in the coach I got some Harbor Freight ratchet straps to bind it together for the abbreviated trip home.
[5] Tub/shower drain routed through rt. rr. wheel well without ANY tire clearance. ABS pipe cut in two in ft. of inside dual. Plumbing to tub/shower rerouted with extreme difficulty.
[6] Bath sink drains into black water tank.
[7] Front frame extensions welded on VERY inaccurately. Lt. extension welded so that battery carrier was 5” low on lt. side. This created a strange bulge on the bottom of the front cap, as Coachmen just forced the front cap on over the low frame extension. Fix: Extension carefully cut loose with a torch and positioned properly, re-welded.
[8] Entire dash had come loose and dropped so low the sales guy couldn’t even drive it. I immediately was obliged to fashion a steel cross span from the rt. sidewall to the steering column to secure dash up in place. (this really should have been # [1])
[9] Finished coach was within 900# of the max. GVW rating of the chassis.
[10] Dealer owed me a new black water tank, tank discontinued / not available from Coachmen. (coach was only 3 years old at the time) I was obliged to tig weld a replacement aluminum tank.
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Let me hasten to admit: I knew I was buying a piece of crap when I bought it. It was cheap, and had less than 14K miles on it. I just failed to be cognizant of just how BIG a piece of crap I had purchased. Fortunately, I have a strong RV / automotive background and have been able to accomplish all the foregoing repairs / modifications myself. Through the years, I have referred to it as my “RV Kit”. It has been sort of like the 1974 AMF Harley-Davidson I bought new. It’s a toss-up on both if more time has been spent on construction / maintenance or actual use as intended. The 12 ounces or so of R-12 required annually is slowly depleting my hoarded supply of R-12. That said, the dash air is the high point of the coach. It’s the only feature that has exceeded my expectations.
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Conclusion(s): The original buyers must have been vision impaired. NO ONE has owned a worse RV of any description. The D.O.T. should not have allowed this coach on the road in 1992. My friends have been correct in questioning my sanity ever since I bought it..
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The truly unbelievable fact is the coach has always been outside in the weather, and there is no delamination, in spite of a leaking rear window on which I’ve given up.
Darthvagrant, Wow, you really covered your issues in detail, thank you. This brings up one of the things I touched on, is quality really going down as of late, or is it just because things like the internet have made them more visible. Sorry to hear of your issues. Thank you for taking the time to participate in this topic, your input is very interesting and informative.
A side note to my previous post. Another admission: When I was initially in the market for a motorhome I had absolutely, positively decided on a class C. That puts all the RV ….errr….CRAP…behind you. Gaining-OEM quality wipers, instruments, heater, A/C, windshield, full wheel wells, nice fitting doors and roll-up windows, better seats,etc, etc., locating dependable manufacturer OEM quality where it’s most important. NOT a bunch of mis-matched R/V ill-fitting crap in front of you too with an add-on York A/C compressor mis-matched to an Atwood heater / A/C evaporator and too much rubber A/C hose, . (Hence, porous hose= continual refirigerant ongoing loss) plus crappy non-OEM instruments. I could go on and on.
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My bad. And have I ever paid for it!. I wore the portable strap-on ass-kicker for quite awhile.
.
The purchase was, unfortunately predicated on a really cheap price. D’oh! A frequently occurring event in my life which is usually regretted. Something like the old cliche of paying too much can be forgotten, paying too little is always remembered. Sadly, I could’ve easily afforded a upper mid lineNEW Class C. My business was booming. If only life had a rewind button.
Darthvagrant, Interesting side note. If you had purchased an upper/middle line new class C, there is no guaranty that it would not lack the quality and have as many issues as the unit you got. Thank you for sharing your experience on this topic and, again, for your great input.
About 5 years ago I was in the market for a 22-28 Ft. Travel Trailer for use as a Mobil Office and Lab in my Oil Service Business, that would double as a vacation trailer for my own use.
After much checking and evaluation, I passed on all of the $20,000-$60,000 new units and bought a 26′ 1972 Silver Streak with a professionally added gray water tank. After 5 years of use on rough oil field roads and 15,000+ miles of towing on vacation use, this 37 year old trailer is solid, completely dependable and with only $5,500 in it after all purchase and maintenance, this trailer has proven to be an excellent value. Will ever purchase a new unit with all of the initial costs and then LOTS of ongoing problems, NOT A CHANCE!
Ralph
Ralph, There is a lot to say about the older rigs. They were built pretty heavy but had far less gadgets on them. Thank you for sharing your experience with us and for your valued input.
Bret if you have worked for Michelin for 35 plus years then you must know that they have chinese partners and that some of their tires are manufactured by the chinese. I have had blowouts with michelins as well as other brands. I now change tires every 5 years regardless of milage or wear. BTW I am now using a set of double coin tires on my 37 ft pace arrow I have 30,000 miles on them and they are 3 years old no problems so far.
Mel
Well, I just spent two hours writing a profound comment and then this monster didn’t like my CAPTCHA code. All gone!!!
Al Paschen, I hate when that happens! Generally, what I do, is copy it entirely to the note pad prior to posting. That way, if a error happens, I can re-do it. Sorry for all your time spent, but glad to hear from you anyway. When you feel like trying it again, give it a spin. There are people that may be very interested in it.
We bought a new Winnebago class A diesel and had problems with the computerized slide locks from the beginning. After 3 attempts for repairs at dealers with no success, we finally drove to the Winnebago Factory in Forest City, Iowa. They professionally took care of this and a few other issues in ONE DAY. Our problem appears to have been with the dealer techs who kept our RV for months and returned it without performing all of the repair(s). We even found one refrigerator part had been glued back together! Wouldn’t a thorough quality control check at the factory where the experts are prevent much of this frustration? Is this too much to ask when spending a quarter of a million bucks? However, Winnebago’s excellent customer service left us very satisfied customers, and we would purchase another Winnie product. The next time I would go to Iowa buy it (or right after buying it), camp there until the warranty repairs were resolved, or buy one a few years old from a diligent owner that got the bugs worked out. Either way, you can’t beat touring the US in your own hotel suite on wheels. It’s better than we ever imagined.
OntheRoad, Your experience certainly supports factory service. This type of thing also applies to all the other manufacturer’s products. If the dealer does a poor job it reflects poorly on the manufacturer. Thanks for sharing your experience and for your great input.
As a long-time RV dealer, I have some comments about RV warranty coverage: ( I must point out that one company that the following comments do not apply to is Winnebago)
There are many things changing in the RV industry these days, as RV manufacturers struggle to survive. One of these things that everyone should be aware of is the handling of warranty claims submitted by dealers. It is only important to consumers when a new RV suffers some kind of mechanical or structural failure.
As a dealer, it is very important to me, because I know that a high percentage of new RVs will be back for some amount of warranty service. A few will be back for really expensive, serious problems.
Travel trailer/fifth wheel manufacturers have cut back on all expenses. Handling of warranty claims appears to be at the head of the list of cut-backs. They are making the dealers jump through all kinds of hoops, in order to get paid for the parts used and the work done by the dealer to fix the defects in the product. In a large proportion of cases, the administrative work needed to get paid is so large that it is more cost-effective for the dealer to just absorb the cost of the “warranty repairs” than to try to collect from the manufacturer. Yet the manufacturers love to tell consumers, “Just take it to any dealer. We pay them for doing warranty repairs”.
The RV business is not as sophisticated as the car business, yet. It often takes days or weeks for the dealer to find out from the manufacturer if a repair will be covered by warranty and if so, just how much the manufacturer will pay. I will relate a few actual experiences at our dealership, and what is now required by the manufacturer:
1. DIGITAL PICTURES of the problem and the repair are almost universally required: Example: COMPLAINT: Sofa moves around when traveling. CAUSE: Screws came loose and broke off. SOLUTION: Replace screws. There is a labor flat-rate for the operation of replacing the screws – roughly 10 minutes. NOW TO GET PAID FOR THE 10 MINUTES OF WORK, DEALER MUST: Take digital pictures of location of the missing screws and the replaced screws, download the pictures and attach the picture files to an electronic warranty claim. The claim form must be filled out with complete information describing the RV unit and the customer, as well as a written narrative describing the complaint, cause and correction. It is also necessary to locate in the manufacturer’s digital flat rate manual, the operation code for replacing screws. Also, to get paid for the 10 minutes of actual work, the dealer must get the RV off the lot and move it into the shop, diagnose the problem, get his tools and find the right part, screws in this case. Unless the tech has a camera in his tool box along with his tools, he must go get the camera from the office. After the work is complete, someone must bring the forklift and take the trailer from the shop and park it. Then move it again when the customer comes to pick it up. The customer signs the repair order indicating the problem was corrected. Now the dealer gets paid for the 10 minutes. This isn’t a made-up situation – it is a typical real-life thing that really happened.
(Question: Is this a safeguard against dealer/customer collusion to defraud the manufacturer? Or is it a procedure to dissuade the dealer from submitting any claim at all?)
2. SPECIAL PART NEEDED – This one really happened last week: COMPLAINT: Running lite lens color faded. CAUSE: Defective lens. SOLUTION: Replace lens. Simple enough, except this lens is not a common one. It must be ordered from the manufacturer. Cost $2.43, plus packing and shipping. Dealer pays the parts and shipping cost but manufacturer will reimburse – if dealer jumps through enough hoops. Dealer must find the labor operation codes for replacing this lens (.1 hr) and the part number for the lens (computer now says we need digital pictures of the old and new lens). Dealer can also recover out-of -pocket cost for shipping, but must find and photocopy the shipping bill. But wait!! A new message has come up on the computer ; Dealer must package and return the old faded lens to manufacturer. Then, he must file another complete warranty claim to recover the return shipping cost on the old lens. If dealer fulfills all the requirements and the customer signs the warranty claim, dealer will get his money back for the lens and all shipping, plus he gets paid for 6 minutes work.
(Question: If dealer must spend 20 or 30 minutes in order to recover payment for 6 minutes of work, is it cost-effective for the dealer to even attempt to recover payment for the part, shipping both ways and 6 minutes of labor time? Is the manufacturer really afraid the customer and dealer will conspire to cheat them out of a $2 lens?)
3. RETURN OF DEFECTIVE PART is required. Often, big warranty jobs involve some major parts. We are trying to get paid right now for a job involving replacement of an axle. We got manufacturer pre-approval before doing the work. They require return of the defective axle. We are owed several hundred dollars of labor plus the cost of an axle, by the manufacturer. We will not get paid until the axle is returned. We cannot return the axle without a “return authorization” tag, which can only come from the manufacturer. Three months and many phone calls later, we are still waiting for a tag.
(QUESTION: Is the manufacturer short of people to process the paperwork, or just not very motivated to pay out money?)
4. JUST DENYING THE CLAIM (OR REDUCING IT) is becoming all too common. Another real case that is now being contested. A big total-rebuilding job that was pre-approved by the manufacturer for $6,000. Four months after completion, a credit comes in the mail for $4,000. No explanation! Outright denials come the same way. Just stamped “Denied”, without explanation.(months after we did the work)
(QUESTION: Why would a dealer do warranty work on any travel trailer that they didn’t sell? Consumers should be aware that dealers know they will lose money every time they do a warranty job.)
If anyone has read this far, you may wonder why I have gone to all the trouble of telling this story. I would hope that people will begin to understand that when their RV dealer solves their warranty problem, he is doing it at considerable cost to the dealership. The manufacturer is not footing the whole bill — not even close!
We, and other reputable RV dealers, are more than happy to do whatever it takes to give our customers a good experience with their new RV. We sold it and we accept responsibility for getting it fixed. And we will gladly help a traveler in distress. But, except for the traveler-in-distress exception, it isn’t realistic to expect a local dealer to do warranty work on a trailer that they didn’t sell.
Al Paschen, This is an excellent description of what obviously is a growing problem and leaves the dealer looking like the bad guy. I had no idea that this was as bad as your examples illustrate. I have seen similar happening in other industries, like electronics, but they are on a very much smaller scale. I totally understand your reluctance to do work on a non-dealer sold unit. Doing so would eventually financially force you out of business.
I an currently writting a piece for a November release that deals with RV service from the dealer and manufacturer’s side, and would love to referrence some of these points.
Thank you for taking the time and giving us this insight into the reality of what actually happens. I’m sure it is an eye opener for many. Again thank you for sharing your experience and for your expert opinion on this topic.
We’re just buying our first rv, a 2003 Vanguard from Canadream In Calgary, Alberta, Canada. We’re thinking of purchasing “after market” warranty coverage from a company called SecureRV (LGM). After reading this forum, I am a bit concerned that dealers won’t be willing to do warranty work on the vehicle….any thoughts out there?
I have been reading the ratings provided by the RVConsumerGroup, but rarely hear it mentioned in any of these BLOGs. It has tight criteria on length vs wheelbase and power vs carrying capacity that seem to make a lot of sense. The problem is very few of the Class C or smaller Class A manage to meet even the basic requirements. I am looking at the smaller ones because I am a traveler of one and not interested in a huge motorhome. Just enough for one person. Fleetwood, Winnebago, Itasca, etc don’t even have one that theRVConsumergroup will give 5 stars to or recommend for more than just usage for a few weeks of the year. Very few of the large volume producers meet their quality requirements and some of the “popular coaches” are actually listed as unsafe. Usually due to overweight chassis; or engine provided.. If I go with their recommendations I will have to go to Canadian manufacturers like Triple E, Chinook or Bigfoot or stay with smaller or more regional manufacturers like Tiffin, Coach House, Lazy dazy, Born free, Dynamax. More expensive and not easy to find in Texas. All of which I have also been warned that repair may be more difficult due to lack of dealerships. I will be living full time on the road by myself. I want something that doesn’t need to be fixed every time I stop and am trying to do the research up front. Does anyone have any input on RVConsumer Group or the coaches they recommend for longterm fulltiming use?
Lynn Gillard, There are many third party warranty companies to choose from. I have never been a supporter of after-market warranties mainly because of the cost. I don’t think it would be difficult to get repairs done on most of these as you have a choice of repair shop to go.. They pay the shop. Perhap someone with direct experience in dealing with these will chime in. Thank you for your input.
Nancy, Actually the topic of the RV Consumers Group has been discussed in many threads in RV.NET. Here’s one LINK http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/15380454/gotomsg/15413894.cfm
Much of their information comes from RVers themselve. It is worth the study. Thank you for your participation on this topic.
I purchased a 2009 Heartland North Trail 5th wheeler.Two months after I happened to crawl under this new trailer and was surprised to see the amount of rust on frame and slides.I contacted Noble Rv (where I purchased) and they in turn contacted Heartland rv and Lippert ,who produces frames,and all they would do is paint over rust.I contacted Mn.Attorney General and there was no way they any power to force these people to cover warranties.
I have talked to dealers and have been told warranties are rotten and if they can get work done,they have to add one hours labor to cover the amount of time they spend fighting with rv companies.
lee metz, That is disappointing, but certainly not unheard of. Sometimes the frames are in stock for a considerable time, in all types of weather. Additionally, an issue with the primer paint with the outer frame paint can result in this kind of problem. If warranty is not an option, there are reasonable priced solutions. Sand blasting of the frame and refinishing is an option, and usually at a low cost. The end result can well be worth the work. Best of luck with your rig and thank you for your input on this topic.
I think the problem is both the manufacturer and the suppliers. We bought a new Holiday Rambler Motor Home. Within the first 3 months we had to replace every vent cover. The TV came through the bottom of the cabnet. When DTV came out I thought I would have no problem but I went on RCA web site and it told me the ancient tv set required a box ( the motor home was 1 year old). I should have junked the tv then but I bought a DTV converter box and the second day of vacation the tv died. (under 2 yeard old to me) Everything the put together is secured with staples. The seats, and the roof have fallen in. The auto jacks will not level the coach ( Thanks to EZ Level I get it done by running jacks manualy.) The fresh water tank had a leak due to loose clamp (black mold) HR had no idea how to get the smell out. Now the Norcold N611RT fridge freezes everything (nobody carries the part and norcold does not respond to E-MAILS). There were other things too but this is the majors.
No wonder HR went out of business.
I thought I was alone but the list above me tells me otherwise.
Ed Nickerson, I believe the TV manufacturers switched to DTV ready about mid 2006, but that is not guaranteed. My ‘07 coach has one of four DTV ready. Thank you for sharing your issues with us and for your input.