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	<title>Comments on: Innovative Future Fuel Savings For Motor Homes</title>
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	<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/</link>
	<description>RV Campground &#38; Camping Information - RV, Motorhome, Camper, Travel Trailer &#38; 5th Wheel Owners</description>
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		<title>By: Chip Martina</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-30906</link>
		<dc:creator>Chip Martina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-30906</guid>
		<description>One of the easiest ways to improve mileage is aerodynamics. (We&#039;ll assume we&#039;re all traveling at the most fuel efficient, safe speed possible, right?) If you look at the back of a typical travel trailer (except for an Airstream and 1 or 2 others) you will notice a complete lack of any type of aerodynamics whatsoever - a proverbial barn door!

I think a company could make a fortune by constructing and selling simple, lightweight tail cones. They could be constructed of stiff Styrofoam, covered with a thin, durable plastic or fiberglass shell; or perhaps inflatable devices made of thick, durable, above-ground swimming pool vinyl. These tail cones would simply ease the air into the huge hole the RV just made, reducing drag (think Airstream.) Slippery, glass smooth under-bellies, side skirts, wheel cowls and &quot;moon&quot; style wheel hubs would also aid in drag reducing retrofitting. If the devices could be easily removed and transferred to your new rig, RVers could more easily justify the initial expense with a longer amortization. If not they would certainly improve their resale value come trade-in time. Soon RV manufacturers will get the hint, adding more streamlining in response to customer demand. They will soon be publishing Cd figures on their units along with weights, as they see the lucrative aftermarket&#039;s success with these add-on devices.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the easiest ways to improve mileage is aerodynamics. (We&#8217;ll assume we&#8217;re all traveling at the most fuel efficient, safe speed possible, right?) If you look at the back of a typical travel trailer (except for an Airstream and 1 or 2 others) you will notice a complete lack of any type of aerodynamics whatsoever &#8211; a proverbial barn door!</p>
<p>I think a company could make a fortune by constructing and selling simple, lightweight tail cones. They could be constructed of stiff Styrofoam, covered with a thin, durable plastic or fiberglass shell; or perhaps inflatable devices made of thick, durable, above-ground swimming pool vinyl. These tail cones would simply ease the air into the huge hole the RV just made, reducing drag (think Airstream.) Slippery, glass smooth under-bellies, side skirts, wheel cowls and &#8220;moon&#8221; style wheel hubs would also aid in drag reducing retrofitting. If the devices could be easily removed and transferred to your new rig, RVers could more easily justify the initial expense with a longer amortization. If not they would certainly improve their resale value come trade-in time. Soon RV manufacturers will get the hint, adding more streamlining in response to customer demand. They will soon be publishing Cd figures on their units along with weights, as they see the lucrative aftermarket&#8217;s success with these add-on devices.</p>
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		<title>By: LARRY DAMBA</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-29958</link>
		<dc:creator>LARRY DAMBA</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Jul 2008 00:22:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-29958</guid>
		<description>I LIKE YOUR IDEA OF THE OLD LOCOMOTIVE, DIESEL/ELECTRIC DRIVE SYSTEMS.TECHNOLOGY TODAY IS AVAILABLE TO MAKE THIS IDEA VERY FEASABLE, BUT RATHER THAN THE OLD DC MOTORS DRIVING A DRIVE SHAFT THRUOGH MORE INEFFICIENT GEARING, VERY EFFICIENT PWM (PULSE WITH MODULATED) MOTORS WITH MICROCONTROLERS DIRECTLY COULD DRIVE THE WHEEL(S) CONTROLLING TORQUE, SPEED, ACCELERATION AND A HOST OF OTHER PARAMETERS. I HAVE JUST RETIRED FROM THE AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY WHERE THESE IDEAS ARE PROVEN AND PERFECTED AND IN USE MANUFACTURING THE MANY COMPONENTS OF THE CARS WE DRIVE. I&#039;M NOT SUE OF THE ENERGY SOURCE THAT WILL BE USED TO POWER THESE MOTORS, BUT I&#039;M BETTING THAT THIS OR A SIMILIAR ELECTRIC SYSTEM WILL BE EMPLOYED IN ALL OUR VEHICLES IN THE FUTURE. TIME TO PUT THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE TO REST IS BECOMMING A PRACTICAL NECESSITY.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I LIKE YOUR IDEA OF THE OLD LOCOMOTIVE, DIESEL/ELECTRIC DRIVE SYSTEMS.TECHNOLOGY TODAY IS AVAILABLE TO MAKE THIS IDEA VERY FEASABLE, BUT RATHER THAN THE OLD DC MOTORS DRIVING A DRIVE SHAFT THRUOGH MORE INEFFICIENT GEARING, VERY EFFICIENT PWM (PULSE WITH MODULATED) MOTORS WITH MICROCONTROLERS DIRECTLY COULD DRIVE THE WHEEL(S) CONTROLLING TORQUE, SPEED, ACCELERATION AND A HOST OF OTHER PARAMETERS. I HAVE JUST RETIRED FROM THE AUTOMOBILE INDUSTRY WHERE THESE IDEAS ARE PROVEN AND PERFECTED AND IN USE MANUFACTURING THE MANY COMPONENTS OF THE CARS WE DRIVE. I&#8217;M NOT SUE OF THE ENERGY SOURCE THAT WILL BE USED TO POWER THESE MOTORS, BUT I&#8217;M BETTING THAT THIS OR A SIMILIAR ELECTRIC SYSTEM WILL BE EMPLOYED IN ALL OUR VEHICLES IN THE FUTURE. TIME TO PUT THE INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE TO REST IS BECOMMING A PRACTICAL NECESSITY.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-29411</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-29411</guid>
		<description>Hello Lug_Nut,

Looks like your subject topic has hit a nerve with many of us.  Most of us are trying to reduce our fuel cost in variuos ways and some hoping for a quick break through new technology to reduce fuel costs.
The fact of the matter is that there are things that we as RVers can do that doesn&#039;t cost big bucks.  Some of the things we can do now are making certain that our engines are properly tuned.  This includes engine lubrication, oil &amp; air filters and properly maintained cooling systems, tire pressures and driving habits.  
I&#039;ve recently changed oil in my old C class and used full synthetic oil.  I will be taking a trip to Oregon next week and will compare fuel mileage then.  I did notice an immediate difference on the first startup with the synthetic oil.  I now have synthetic in my transmission &amp; differential too.
I think that the biggest benefit for RVers will occur when the hydrogen fuel cell is in full production.  A friend of ours who was a Canadian Army officer (now retired) worked on projects for NATO in developing engine technology for all NATO forces vehicles.  He also worked with GM developing the ECM technology we use today.  He said many years ago that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future.  The question is what time frame?  As many of you may know that fuel cell technology was developed by Ballard in Vancouver , BC.  Research is still ongoing, in fact there are hydrogen fuel cell busses on the road here in Victoria and Vancouver and some US cities that are putting it through test trials.
It makes me wonder why it hasn&#039;t been developed quicker.  Is it perhaps that the oil industry with their huge influence has purchased controlling shares in these fuel cell companies and don&#039;t want it developed just yet while they are enjoying record and absurd profits?  Governments also have a big part in it too.  After all, where does much of their campaign fundimg potentially come from.


Cheers,
John</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello Lug_Nut,</p>
<p>Looks like your subject topic has hit a nerve with many of us.  Most of us are trying to reduce our fuel cost in variuos ways and some hoping for a quick break through new technology to reduce fuel costs.<br />
The fact of the matter is that there are things that we as RVers can do that doesn&#8217;t cost big bucks.  Some of the things we can do now are making certain that our engines are properly tuned.  This includes engine lubrication, oil &amp; air filters and properly maintained cooling systems, tire pressures and driving habits.<br />
I&#8217;ve recently changed oil in my old C class and used full synthetic oil.  I will be taking a trip to Oregon next week and will compare fuel mileage then.  I did notice an immediate difference on the first startup with the synthetic oil.  I now have synthetic in my transmission &amp; differential too.<br />
I think that the biggest benefit for RVers will occur when the hydrogen fuel cell is in full production.  A friend of ours who was a Canadian Army officer (now retired) worked on projects for NATO in developing engine technology for all NATO forces vehicles.  He also worked with GM developing the ECM technology we use today.  He said many years ago that hydrogen will be the fuel of the future.  The question is what time frame?  As many of you may know that fuel cell technology was developed by Ballard in Vancouver , BC.  Research is still ongoing, in fact there are hydrogen fuel cell busses on the road here in Victoria and Vancouver and some US cities that are putting it through test trials.<br />
It makes me wonder why it hasn&#8217;t been developed quicker.  Is it perhaps that the oil industry with their huge influence has purchased controlling shares in these fuel cell companies and don&#8217;t want it developed just yet while they are enjoying record and absurd profits?  Governments also have a big part in it too.  After all, where does much of their campaign fundimg potentially come from.</p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
John</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Trujillo</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-28219</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Trujillo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Jul 2008 14:14:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-28219</guid>
		<description>Fuel cost are high but will it stop us from enjoying travelling ?
We just travelled 7000 miles cross country ,  just under $ 3300,00  for gas  
$1.00 less per gallon cost me $700.00 more from last years planning.

That will not stop us from travelling  , but we did utilize free camping a few nites and did not splurge on goodies we also slowed down .

Another $ 1.00 will make us think.

$8.00 gas will put a lot of RV&#039;s in the bone yard , maybe that is the plan ?????</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fuel cost are high but will it stop us from enjoying travelling ?<br />
We just travelled 7000 miles cross country ,  just under $ 3300,00  for gas<br />
$1.00 less per gallon cost me $700.00 more from last years planning.</p>
<p>That will not stop us from travelling  , but we did utilize free camping a few nites and did not splurge on goodies we also slowed down .</p>
<p>Another $ 1.00 will make us think.</p>
<p>$8.00 gas will put a lot of RV&#8217;s in the bone yard , maybe that is the plan ?????</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff Etter</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-27369</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff Etter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-27369</guid>
		<description>The concepts of revolutionary new engines, technology and designs somewhere down the road are wonderful, but not very useful for the several million people who already own an RV manufactured using existing technology.  What I need is something that will help me now with the rig that I already own.

There are numerous fuel additives available on the market making claims regarding improved fuel mileage.  For instance, RxP (www.rxp.com) provides detailed test data on their website regarding tests that were conducted with the Florida Department of Transportation on 6 vehicles of various makes and models for one full year (http://www.rxp.com/department_of_transportation_test_results.htm).  The fuel savings results from these tests indicate reductions ranging from 6% TO 30% depending on the vehicle, and there were also significant reductions in the amounts of greenhouse gas emissions from those vehicles.

While I am all for R&amp;D for the future, I think that the RV industry would be very well served by attempting to find a way to help make our existing coaches run more fuel efficient today.

There seems to be a lot of controversy over whether or not these additives work and I think that the RV industry (along with the trucking industry) would be well served to formally put them to the test in scientifically controlled, monitored and reported tests from an independent lab.  If any (or all) of these additives work safely, reduce emissions and fuel consumption, then we should know which ones and where we can get them.

As a note, I know the principals involved with RxP, but have no interest (financial, or otherwise) in the company.  I have used the product in my cars off and on for several years and would really like to begin using it in my RV if I think that I can safely do so and reduce my fuel consumption.

I think the RVIA should launch a formal trial to see if there is a benefit to the RV community from the use of any of these products.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The concepts of revolutionary new engines, technology and designs somewhere down the road are wonderful, but not very useful for the several million people who already own an RV manufactured using existing technology.  What I need is something that will help me now with the rig that I already own.</p>
<p>There are numerous fuel additives available on the market making claims regarding improved fuel mileage.  For instance, RxP (www.rxp.com) provides detailed test data on their website regarding tests that were conducted with the Florida Department of Transportation on 6 vehicles of various makes and models for one full year (<a href="http://www.rxp.com/department_of_transportation_test_results.htm)" rel="nofollow">http://www.rxp.com/department_of_transportation_test_results.htm)</a>.  The fuel savings results from these tests indicate reductions ranging from 6% TO 30% depending on the vehicle, and there were also significant reductions in the amounts of greenhouse gas emissions from those vehicles.</p>
<p>While I am all for R&amp;D for the future, I think that the RV industry would be very well served by attempting to find a way to help make our existing coaches run more fuel efficient today.</p>
<p>There seems to be a lot of controversy over whether or not these additives work and I think that the RV industry (along with the trucking industry) would be well served to formally put them to the test in scientifically controlled, monitored and reported tests from an independent lab.  If any (or all) of these additives work safely, reduce emissions and fuel consumption, then we should know which ones and where we can get them.</p>
<p>As a note, I know the principals involved with RxP, but have no interest (financial, or otherwise) in the company.  I have used the product in my cars off and on for several years and would really like to begin using it in my RV if I think that I can safely do so and reduce my fuel consumption.</p>
<p>I think the RVIA should launch a formal trial to see if there is a benefit to the RV community from the use of any of these products.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-26769</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 04:19:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-26769</guid>
		<description>This is going to be a long, drawn-out argument for a lot of people. However, I must point out that the author actually pointed out a technology that is over 70 years old and would be extremely viable for a heavy rig like a Class A. This is to go the old Diesel/Electric route that all modern railroads use. Simply put, a Diesel engine of specific horsepower driving an electric generator that could both charge a battery pack and simultaneously drive electric motors for the drive train. Unlike the railroads though, the electric motors don&#039;t need to drive the wheels directly when they can easily be used through existing transmission technology to power a conventional driveshaft This means that the motors don&#039;t need to be as big as used on a locomotive to get the starting power and maintain speed. This also means that the rated horsepower of the motor or motors can be a fraction of that demanded to try to maintain highway speed without a transmission. 
In other words, where a 300+ hp engine is now pushing/pulling the coach, a smaller 200 hp engine can drive a generator feeding batteries and eventually work over to motors equvalent to 300 hp. Starting from a dead stop is where the electrics have the highest torque and so need the most power, drawing from the batteries and the generator. As the vehicle accelerates, the torque drops off, reducing the load on the batteries. By shifting gears, the motors are put back under load to maintain acceleration and after three or four shifts should have the coach running at highway speed while the motors are under a greatly-reduced load. By this time, the engine should only be needed to provide enough power to maintain speed and recharge the batteries. Any braking can also be through the drive train (railroad dynamic braking) to boost charge to the batteries, limiting the load on the wheel brakes to emergency use and final stopping. To a great extent, this means that long downhill grades will be much easier on the brakes as well as giving better control without having to resort to noisy compression braking as used by modern heavy trucks. Excess power generated could be used to supplement coach interior supplies for water heating and rooftop air conditioners.

The technology is &#039;older than dirt&#039; in a way; all it takes is someone to bring it to a different platform.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is going to be a long, drawn-out argument for a lot of people. However, I must point out that the author actually pointed out a technology that is over 70 years old and would be extremely viable for a heavy rig like a Class A. This is to go the old Diesel/Electric route that all modern railroads use. Simply put, a Diesel engine of specific horsepower driving an electric generator that could both charge a battery pack and simultaneously drive electric motors for the drive train. Unlike the railroads though, the electric motors don&#8217;t need to drive the wheels directly when they can easily be used through existing transmission technology to power a conventional driveshaft This means that the motors don&#8217;t need to be as big as used on a locomotive to get the starting power and maintain speed. This also means that the rated horsepower of the motor or motors can be a fraction of that demanded to try to maintain highway speed without a transmission.<br />
In other words, where a 300+ hp engine is now pushing/pulling the coach, a smaller 200 hp engine can drive a generator feeding batteries and eventually work over to motors equvalent to 300 hp. Starting from a dead stop is where the electrics have the highest torque and so need the most power, drawing from the batteries and the generator. As the vehicle accelerates, the torque drops off, reducing the load on the batteries. By shifting gears, the motors are put back under load to maintain acceleration and after three or four shifts should have the coach running at highway speed while the motors are under a greatly-reduced load. By this time, the engine should only be needed to provide enough power to maintain speed and recharge the batteries. Any braking can also be through the drive train (railroad dynamic braking) to boost charge to the batteries, limiting the load on the wheel brakes to emergency use and final stopping. To a great extent, this means that long downhill grades will be much easier on the brakes as well as giving better control without having to resort to noisy compression braking as used by modern heavy trucks. Excess power generated could be used to supplement coach interior supplies for water heating and rooftop air conditioners.</p>
<p>The technology is &#8216;older than dirt&#8217; in a way; all it takes is someone to bring it to a different platform.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-26768</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 03:35:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-26768</guid>
		<description>Some truckers have made their own HydroElectric Hydrogen hybrids. They use a six-pack of bubblers connected to their batteries that generate OxyHydrogen that is then injected into the engine. The claims of increased mileage of 10% to 25% are tantalizing, but I don&#039;t know anybody personally who has done this. There are a lot of video demonstrations, but not from reliable sources. If true, this would be fantastic. Anybody know if this is on the up and up?

Thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some truckers have made their own HydroElectric Hydrogen hybrids. They use a six-pack of bubblers connected to their batteries that generate OxyHydrogen that is then injected into the engine. The claims of increased mileage of 10% to 25% are tantalizing, but I don&#8217;t know anybody personally who has done this. There are a lot of video demonstrations, but not from reliable sources. If true, this would be fantastic. Anybody know if this is on the up and up?</p>
<p>Thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Lug_Nut</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-26577</link>
		<dc:creator>Lug_Nut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-26577</guid>
		<description>Connie,  I don&#039;t know whether such hybrid systems would be available or priced within a reasonable amount.  The city buses run 16 to 18 hours per day, seven day a week.  With that operation frequency, the cost can be addressed.  Additionally I believe in some cases a manufacturer&#039;s subsidy was absorbed as an R. &amp; D. expense.  But, this would certainly be of interest and worth looking into.  Your input is appreciated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Connie,  I don&#8217;t know whether such hybrid systems would be available or priced within a reasonable amount.  The city buses run 16 to 18 hours per day, seven day a week.  With that operation frequency, the cost can be addressed.  Additionally I believe in some cases a manufacturer&#8217;s subsidy was absorbed as an R. &amp; D. expense.  But, this would certainly be of interest and worth looking into.  Your input is appreciated.</p>
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		<title>By: Connie</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-26574</link>
		<dc:creator>Connie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:29:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-26574</guid>
		<description>Why cab&#039;t we have hybrid motorhomes?  They are using hybrid buses in California and New York that I know of.  If hybrids can be used for these buses, why can&#039;t they be used for motorhomes?

Years ago there were small Class C motorhomes on a Toyota chassis.  Why can&#039;t the Toyota/Winnebago partnership be used again to produce a Class C on a newer, more fuel efficient Toyota chassis?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why cab&#8217;t we have hybrid motorhomes?  They are using hybrid buses in California and New York that I know of.  If hybrids can be used for these buses, why can&#8217;t they be used for motorhomes?</p>
<p>Years ago there were small Class C motorhomes on a Toyota chassis.  Why can&#8217;t the Toyota/Winnebago partnership be used again to produce a Class C on a newer, more fuel efficient Toyota chassis?</p>
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		<title>By: Lug_Nut</title>
		<link>http://blog.rv.net/2008/07/innovative-future-fuel-savings-for-motor-homes/comment-page-1/#comment-26573</link>
		<dc:creator>Lug_Nut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Jul 2008 19:23:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.rv.net/?p=1731#comment-26573</guid>
		<description>Alvin, Propane, like all energy commodities, has also increased in price greatly.  I don&#039;t know, however, how it would compare to gas power today.  Perhaps there are other readers that may know how these compare if used on heavy vehicles such as a class A motor home.  Either way, it is worth investigating.  Thanks for your input.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alvin, Propane, like all energy commodities, has also increased in price greatly.  I don&#8217;t know, however, how it would compare to gas power today.  Perhaps there are other readers that may know how these compare if used on heavy vehicles such as a class A motor home.  Either way, it is worth investigating.  Thanks for your input.</p>
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